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5 hours ago, PaganMegan said:

This is where grognards are forged.

This. So much this. I went with PF when it first launched because of the backwards compatibility with 3.5. Even though most of my 3.5 books just collect dust anymore, I still have a wide variety of options that I could use if I wanted to. With PF2.0, all the books I've bought, for over a decade now, across both 3.5 and Pathfinder 1, would be worthless. I absolutely couldn't see the point in adopting PF2. However, I played demos of it at the last 2 Origin conventions, and I am not impressed. I don't like the lack of tactical movement with the removal of Attacks of Opportunity. I don't like shields breaking on the regular if you're using them at all. I'm just not at all interested in most of the changes that they've applied. I'll stick to PF1, even though high level NPCs are a nightmare to build and only last 2-3 rounds of combat if lucky...

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18 hours ago, Disciple of Sakura said:

This. So much this. I went with PF when it first launched because of the backwards compatibility with 3.5. Even though most of my 3.5 books just collect dust anymore, I still have a wide variety of options that I could use if I wanted to. With PF2.0, all the books I've bought, for over a decade now, across both 3.5 and Pathfinder 1, would be worthless. I absolutely couldn't see the point in adopting PF2. However, I played demos of it at the last 2 Origin conventions, and I am not impressed. I don't like the lack of tactical movement with the removal of Attacks of Opportunity. I don't like shields breaking on the regular if you're using them at all. I'm just not at all interested in most of the changes that they've applied. I'll stick to PF1, even though high level NPCs are a nightmare to build and only last 2-3 rounds of combat if lucky...

 

If you played the demo at origins, you have a 1 in 5 chance of me running that demo for you. :lol:

 

--- This next section is aimed at the audience in general and not directed at Discipline of Sakura who I quoted above ---

 

My biggest peeve is people who haven't played the game saying the game is this or that. Especially those who haven't played and say it's 'watered down 5E' (not something said here, but others have said) or light on strategy.

 

Running the demo 10 or whatever times at Origins, running Origin of the open road, and The Mosquito Witch, playing a home campaign of the playtest and running the playtest scenarios (Rose street 8 times, Archlords Envy once), has given me the impression of a deep strategic complexity that is easier to learn and track than PF1. Characters are more customizable.

 

Though I recognize my opinion is just that, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion. Though I'm personally already getting a bit tired of people making declarations on a game they haven't played, even though that is to be expected, because it is what nerds do.

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Still reserving judgment here, same's I did for 5e, and 4e, and ... well. You get the idea.

 

Mostly, because my current experience is with the play test, and the play test was a steaming sack of turd soup with a side of crap sandwich, and I don't know how much of that is valid, and how much is six hours of character creation and the accompanying frustration that goes with never getting past that stage. ^^;

I'm hoping I'll get a chance to play at Reapercon. Hopefully, won't be too much else going down...

 

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2 hours ago, Sylverthorne said:

Still reserving judgment here, same's I did for 5e, and 4e, and ... well. You get the idea.

 

Mostly, because my current experience is with the play test, and the play test was a steaming sack of turd soup with a side of crap sandwich, and I don't know how much of that is valid, and how much is six hours of character creation and the accompanying frustration that goes with never getting past that stage. ^^;

I'm hoping I'll get a chance to play at Reapercon. Hopefully, won't be too much else going down...

 

 

We can make a character at the bar, over drinks. I promise. Or I'll buy you the next drink.

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7 hours ago, Thes Hunter said:

 

If you played the demo at origins, you have a 1 in 5 chance of me running that demo for you. :lol:

 

--- This next section is aimed at the audience in general and not directed at Discipline of Sakura who I quoted above ---

 

My biggest peeve is people who haven't played the game saying the game is this or that. Especially those who haven't played and say it's 'watered down 5E' (not something said here, but others have said) or light on strategy.

 

Running the demo 10 or whatever times at Origins, running Origin of the open road, and The Mosquito Witch, playing a home campaign of the playtest and running the playtest scenarios (Rose street 8 times, Archlords Envy once), has given me the impression of a deep strategic complexity that is easier to learn and track than PF1. Characters are more customizable.

 

Though I recognize my opinion is just that, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion. Though I'm personally already getting a bit tired of people making declarations on a game they haven't played, even though that is to be expected, because it is what nerds do.

Whereas I get really annoyed when people assume that because I don't like something, I don't know what I am talking about.

 

Paizo had a chance to introduce the game in a manner that did not make the game seem like a pile of rotting fish without ice.

 

Instead they said 'It's a playtest! I's supposed to be rotting fish without ice!' (Paraphrasing, but less than you might think.)

 

The playtest was enough to inform people that what they were getting was a pile of rotting fish without ice.

 

Why the Hell would we spend money on the game, given how godawful that playtest was, and with the Paizo staff being pretty damned clear that they were not paying attention? (Huh, people hate Resonance. Here's a new version of Resonance! Oh, wait, you don't like that either? Here, have a third version of Resonance! Oh, you dropped out of the playtest... maybe we should get rid of Resonance before we lose all of them.)

 

Resonance was simply that final straw. Character generation was downright painful - with the player having less control over what their character was capable of.

 

PF1 may have problems, but it is, at least, not a rotting pile of fish without ice. Players have a lot of freedom in generating their characters. Perhaps too much - but it is scads better than going step by step adding points to attributes by way of background.

 

Hell, I enjoy character generation in PF1.

 

Which means that if you want PF2to succeed it has to be at least as enjoyable as PF1.

 

That playtest was not fun on any level, but character generation, in particular, was downright painful. Even saying 'Yeah, we need to work on that' would have helped.

 

Instead we got 'It's a playtest, it's not supposed to be fun'.

 

Hey, dum dums - it's a playtest for a freakin' game! Games are supposed to be fun!

 

People do have a reason to judge PF2 without playing it - that damned playtest. Instead of generating enthusiasm that playtest killed it off. Saying 'it's a playtest, it's not supposed to be fun' - which is not a paraphrase, incidentally - was one of the stupidest PR mistakes I have seen since 4e D&D.

 

Do not assume that people that disagree with you are uninformed - it annoys them and does not in any way further your argument.

 

That kind of assumption is why 4e failed so spectacularly.

 

And your audience can come to the conclusion that you like piles of rotting fish without ice.

 

The Auld Grump

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@TheAuldGrump - please do not infer that I was directing any of my comments towards you.

 

Yes, I do think you should check out the final version before making final judgements, but it also sounds like the playtest itself has deeply angered you. 

 

It is obvious you and Megan sunk your teeth into the playtest, and have been left with a bitter taste.

 

However, though the playtest has factors similar to 2E, they are not exactly equivalent. So a statement about 2E based on experience with the playtest exclusively may not be accurate.

 

Though from the sound of it, the playtest and pazio burned the bridge far enough that both of you may never play 2E. Which I think is unfortunate, because I am liking what I'm seeing in 2E, but then again, too each their own.

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37 minutes ago, Thes Hunter said:

@TheAuldGrump - please do not infer that I was directing any of my comments towards you.

 

Yes, I do think you should check out the final version before making final judgements, but it also sounds like the playtest itself has deeply angered you. 

 

It is obvious you and Megan sunk your teeth into the playtest, and have been left with a bitter taste.

 

However, though the playtest has factors similar to 2E, they are not exactly equivalent. So a statement about 2E based on experience with the playtest exclusively may not be accurate.

 

Though from the sound of it, the playtest and pazio burned the bridge far enough that both of you may never play 2E. Which I think is unfortunate, because I am liking what I'm seeing in 2E, but then again, too each their own.

The playtest was offensive on very many levels - with the root causes of this offense being hubris and lack of communication.

 

They were already too deep into the new system when they finally got around to unveiling it - with the result that they were loathe to change any of their glorious innovation. Two years of development had already passed before they unveiled their playtest document - leaving a single year to get the bedamned thing corrected.

 

Like WotC before them, I expected better.

 

Not merely in the rules, but in communication, and even in allowing sufficient time for the needed changes to be disseminated.

 

Contrast the playtest of PF2 with that of PF1, or 5e for that matter. Contrast the level of communication, and how long their game designers had to correct mistakes, and communicate the changes.

 

Also like WotC before them, I suspect a level of corporate panic was one of the driving forces behind the new edition with the lack of communication and the unwillingness to fix some of the very real problems a result of said panic. A form of intellectual tunnel vision.

 

In any creative exercise it must be accepted that putting a hard deadline on a project involving many voices needs to allow sufficient time.

 

The Auld Grump

 

*EDIT* Any time I hear a company say 'We know what we're doing!' I immediately suspect that, no, they do not.

 

 

Edited by TheAuldGrump
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Last weekend I gave PF2nd a look. In that I looked at the books on the shelves. At the time that was all I could do because my arms were full of other things.

 

The playtest, specifically the runaround that was character creation (it took 3 HOURS to make a 1st level character!), lost me a player from my gaming group. Permanently. Heck, he left Pathfinder permanently. It killed Paizo for him in its entirety. It nearly broke the rest of us up. In order to keep the group together I stepped down from GMing for a spell.

 

Next time I'm at my FLGS I'll try to have my hands free so I can flip through the book. I'll build a few characters in my head, see if I can do it before the store owner yells at me to buy the book or stop reading. But my time with the playtest means they will have to wow me to Cytherea and back to make me spend money on 2nd edition.

 

Count me as someone burned. 

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I was burned too, and what made it smart the worst was the fact that I was SO excited. Everything I heard about it at Paizocon before the playtest went live sounded great, very much in line of what I wanted. Fewer, more cohesive rules? Simpler and more clearly explained character creation? Complete review of legacy gameplay elements?Streamlined combat? HECK YES SIGN ME UP FOR THIS RIDE! *puts on GMing hat* :bday:

 

Reading through the playtest the first time, I found it was...not really any of those things (the horridly awful index was just the tip of the iceburg), but I decided to give it a solid go, and our group was game to try as well, so we dove in. 

 

Watching them struggle with making characters was...painful in the extreme. Even MrBoot, who has been gaming for longer than I've known him (12 years now), took over an hour to make a simple dwarven fighter (named Crash Test Dummy #1; he saw where the whole thing was likely to go long before I did lol). I tried whipping up a quick rogue just to see if I could, and got bogged down pretty quickly. The poor guy who was brave enough to attempt a magic-user took over 3 hours. It didn't feel like building a character in a different flavor of Pathfinder, it felt like trying to figure out an entirely new d20 system. 

 

Next session we got into the gameplay itself, and things went downhill pretty fast. I was trying to run the game as I'd been instructed (as a stress test), and the players played as usual, overcoming and avoiding encounters and problems with their typical clever shenanigans. Which I normally love and encourage, but it was a very frustrating situation, being constantly torn between running a game that was "correct" or running a game that was fun to be a part of. 

 

We struggled our way through the first module, and got one session into the second one before we quit. Partly it was because half our 4-person group moved away, but I doubt it would have lasted much longer anyways. Nobody was having fun anymore (myself included), and Paizo didn't seem interested in the feedback that we wanted to give, so why continue? (Aside: MrBoot and I have personally experienced the attitude from many of the Paizo staff (not all, but many) of "we know what game we want to make, now sit down and get ready to buy what we will bestow upon you." It's badly rubbed MrBoot wrong on multiple occasions. :unsure:

 

So, I guess I'm not bitter so much as I am deeply saddened and disappointed. I was very excited for what Paizo was originally promising, but when what came out in the playtest wasn't any of those things, well...it didn't really make me want to dip my toe in the hot tub again after getting burned so badly the first time, y'know? 

 

@Thes Hunter While I would dearly love to give it another look at ReaperCon with you, I legitimately don't know if/when I'll have the time; all the classes I'm teaching are in the evening, and I'll either be in Artist Alley or in class during the day.

 

Huzzah! 

--OneBoot :D 

Edited by OneBoot
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@OneBoot - I will always have/make time for you.

 

If you have any time, I will run.

 

I'm going to prep the Quest as well so we have a one hour option. Or heck, I can just run the demo. Lol. So if you have a hf hour to and hour anytime during the con, I'll run you through some 2E.

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I too played the playtest.  I did not have ant problem with character generation except that it did not create a player that I would want to play.  I did not like the system.  I have not played 2e but I did read the book.  Most of the parts I did not like were still there and there was not anything additional that I would like.  To each their own but for me I ill not be playing 2e.  I am sorry that Pazio like WotC has left Fantasy RPGs.

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18 hours ago, Thes Hunter said:

 

We can make a character at the bar, over drinks. I promise. Or I'll buy you the next drink.

I'll take that offer!  But only during Happy Hour.

8 hours ago, NebulousMissy said:

Last weekend I gave PF2nd a look. In that I looked at the books on the shelves. At the time that was all I could do because my arms were full of other things.

 

The playtest, specifically the runaround that was character creation (it took 3 HOURS to make a 1st level character!), lost me a player from my gaming group. Permanently. Heck, he left Pathfinder permanently. It killed Paizo for him in its entirety. It nearly broke the rest of us up. In order to keep the group together I stepped down from GMing for a spell.

 

Next time I'm at my FLGS I'll try to have my hands free so I can flip through the book. I'll build a few characters in my head, see if I can do it before the store owner yells at me to buy the book or stop reading. But my time with the playtest means they will have to wow me to Cytherea and back to make me spend money on 2nd edition.

 

Count me as someone burned. 

Last time I was on Archives of Nethys I saw a PF2 tab, so you may be able to get a feel for the rules without buying a book.

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We stuck with the playtest four weeks too long.

 

If Grump had given up before Resonance showed up, maybe we woulfn't have ended up hating PF2 so much.

 

They lost half their playtesters in two weeks because of Resonance, but that really was just the last straw, I was already unhappy, and had been since character generation.

 

Character generation was WORSE than Resonance, Resonance was just where we gave up.

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