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I'm willing to give it a shot.  I didn't bother with any of the play tests so all I know about it I have heard in passing here on the forums.  If I get some time I may mess around with character creation (usually one of my favorite parts of a game) before hand.

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4 hours ago, OneBoot said:

I was burned too, and what made it smart the worst was the fact that I was SO excited. Everything I heard about it at Paizocon before the playtest went live sounded great, very much in line of what I wanted. Fewer, more cohesive rules? Simpler and more clearly explained character creation? Complete review of legacy gameplay elements?Streamlined combat? HECK YES SIGN ME UP FOR THIS RIDE! *puts on GMing hat* :bday:

 

Reading through the playtest the first time, I found it was...not really any of those things (the horridly awful index was just the tip of the iceburg), but I decided to give it a solid go, and our group was game to try as well, so we dove in. 

 

Watching them struggle with making characters was...painful in the extreme. Even MrBoot, who has been gaming for longer than I've known him (12 years now), took over an hour to make a simple dwarven fighter (named Crash Test Dummy #1; he saw where the whole thing was likely to go long before I did lol). I tried whipping up a quick rogue just to see if I could, and got bogged down pretty quickly. The poor guy who was brave enough to attempt a magic-user took over 3 hours. It didn't feel like building a character in a different flavor of Pathfinder, it felt like trying to figure out an entirely new d20 system. 

 

Next session we got into the gameplay itself, and things went downhill pretty fast. I was trying to run the game as I'd been instructed (as a stress test), and the players played as usual, overcoming and avoiding encounters and problems with their typical clever shenanigans. Which I normally love and encourage, but it was a very frustrating situation, being constantly torn between running a game that was "correct" or running a game that was fun to be a part of. 

 

We struggled our way through the first module, and got one session into the second one before we quit. Partly it was because half our 4-person group moved away, but I doubt it would have lasted much longer anyways. Nobody was having fun anymore (myself included), and Paizo didn't seem interested in the feedback that we wanted to give, so why continue? (Aside: MrBoot and I have personally experienced the attitude from many of the Paizo staff (not all, but many) of "we know what game we want to make, now sit down and get ready to buy what we will bestow upon you." It's badly rubbed MrBoot wrong on multiple occasions. :unsure:

 

So, I guess I'm not bitter so much as I am deeply saddened and disappointed. I was very excited for what Paizo was originally promising, but when what came out in the playtest wasn't any of those things, well...it didn't really make me want to dip my toe in the hot tub again after getting burned so badly the first time, y'know? 

 

@Thes Hunter While I would dearly love to give it another look at ReaperCon with you, I legitimately don't know if/when I'll have the time; all the classes I'm teaching are in the evening, and I'll either be in Artist Alley or in class during the day.

 

Huzzah! 

--OneBoot :D 

That was us too! So very much us!

 

So excited to be part of the playtest, only to get a brown steaming pile in place of the fun we were expecting. Not rotting fish, definitely brown steaming pile of broccoli. One that killed the plants around it rather than making the ground fertile.

 

And being told it was supposed to be a toxic brown steaming pile was insult added to injury. That was the moment I started a mental countdown.

 

Grump runs a fun game. I think I run a fun game. That playtest was NOT fun.

 

And Jacobs being silent during the playtest was not a good sign. I think Jacobs probably runs a fun game too.

 

And the playtest for PF1 WAS fun.

I think I will start calling PF2 #2.

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I am just glad it was Grump running the playtest, not me. My self confidence as a GM was shaky enough that I would have blamed myself, not the crappy rules.

 

Thankfully I could yell at Grump instead. ::D: He has the confidence to spare, with a side order of self deprecating arrogance. ::P:

Edited by PaganMegan
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2 hours ago, ttuckerman said:

 I am sorry that Pazio like WotC has left Fantasy RPGs.

 

I think that overstates the case dramatically. And I say that as no fan of PF2.

 

It's not what I want from a fantasy RPG, but that doesn't make it somehow No True FRPG.

 

As an aside from that point, I'm seeing quite a few people who have been playing 5e that seem to really like the choices that PF2 provides. (Doesn't help me, because I won't play 5e either, but that just makes me not the intended audience.) PF2 might end up being a success in the long run (without me).

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I enjoy the flavor of Paizo's stuff, but they are a bit too rule intensive for me these days. I realize that is what appeals to some players. I hope they do well, because I think more options are better than less. 

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2 minutes ago, Doug Sundseth said:

 

I think that overstates the case dramatically. And I say that as no fan of PF2.

 

It's not what I want from a fantasy RPG, but that doesn't make it somehow No True FRPG.

 

As an aside from that point, I'm seeing quite a few people who have been playing 5e that seem to really like the choices that PF2 provides. (Doesn't help me, because I won't play 5e either, but that just makes me not the intended audience.) PF2 might end up being a success in the long run (without me).

At leas Paizo missed that one. WotC DID use No True Scotsman arguments, it was where they lost a lot of people. And was so, so stupid.

 

I don't say #2 is not an RPG, I say it was not a FUN RPG. Or at least the playtest was not fun.

 

Until Resonance they were not even admitting there were problems.

 

Losing half the play test people was a wakeup call. But the only play testers left were the ones that were already willing to wade through the brown squishy pile. They alienated the ones that they most needed to listen to.

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19 hours ago, Thes Hunter said:

 

We can make a character at the bar, over drinks. I promise. Or I'll buy you the next drink.

 

I'll bring the beer or cider.. lets just do a character creation session.. the mechanics for me were mostly okay.. but I need to see if its worth my time investing in new characters in the new system.. 

 

 

My biggest problems with the Playtest is It started as an Alpha and the rule book was badly organized even for an alpha.  and they asked us to pay for it with the impression that it was a beta.

 

If they had released it as a PDF alpha and then brought out the softcover as a beta once the first few rounds of bad mechanics got shaken out (Say November) that was organized more like the final book would be I know a lot of people who might be less upset.  but the first impression was a mess and you add in that people paid for something that was nowhere close to finished..  4E was a disaster, but there were playtest PDFs distributed through RPGA for 2 years before anything was available for purchase.. 

Edited by SamuraiJack
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47 minutes ago, PaganMegan said:

 

I am just glad it was Grump running the playtest, not me. My self confidence as a GM was shaky enough that I would have blamed myself, not the crappy rules.

 

Thankfully I could yell at Grump instead. ::D: He has the confidence to spare, with a side order of self deprecating arrogance. ::P:

 

I'm sure you're a great GM. I'd love to play in one of your games.

 

---- 

 

I ran Rose Street Revenge at 6 times at Gen Con last year (and once or twice at Reaper con.) I can tell you resonance was taught in Rose Street, and everyone who I introduced it to thought it was garbage, and I thought it was muffcabbage with a side of broccoli. I get that they were trying to not have my 11th level barbarian eat a wand of cure light wounds between combats because thematically it seems weird, but from a cost to benefit ratio it was the only thing that made sense.

 

Here is what I always said when I talked about resonance "Well, we'll see if it sticks around until the final release." :lol:

 

So resonance was removed and they made healers great again. :wub:

 

Maybe I was living under a rock, or was too busy having fun with 1E, but I missed the whole "We know better" but I believe it. I've gotten a sense there is some toxic work relationships within Pazio, but I'm just an organized play GM, so I don't really know anything for certain.

 

But it certainly sounds like they made a number of errors in communication, on top of their chronic issues with marketing.

(Matt points out that for D&D you have a bunch of cool looking geeks making well edited dynamic, fun and interesting videos of people playing D&D. I.e. making D&D look hip. He hasn't found the same for Pathfinder. There may be some money involved in the background, but generally the public at large doesn't care about that, most people want to be seen as cool, interesting people and want thier hobbies to reflect the same.)

Edited by Thes Hunter
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That's a lot kinder than I've described the people doing the D&D video thing lol. Those people kind of make me not want to be involved with the scene. The staging is just so... over the top, let's say. But yeah, they've definitely made some great strides with marketing 5e. They're killing it with the social media. People who aren't me obviously are eating it up. Pathfinder hasn't managed anything even remotely close.

 

There is a lot of arrogance over at Paizo, and it's embedded throughout aspects of the company that go beyond the game stuff even. I've a lot of thoughts on this that I'll not bore anyone with, but the most obvious and destructive strain of it was definitely on display with the approach to the playtest and PF2 launch.

 

I'm absolutely shocked by these stories of losing players and groups to the playtest. That's wild, man.

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5 hours ago, ttuckerman said:

 I am sorry that Pazio like WotC has left Fantasy RPGs.

I'm not sure I follow this....

How is D&D not a fantasy RPG?

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2 hours ago, SamuraiJack said:

 

I'll bring the beer or cider.. lets just do a character creation session.. the mechanics for me were mostly okay.. but I need to see if its worth my time investing in new characters in the new system.. 

 

 

 

I am very much down for this.

 

I will try anything once. Tried the playtest with @Thes Hunter as the GM and had fun, though, I admit, I approached it from the 'let's play some roles' side rather than 'let's test this new system'. I also used a pregen and never did try character creation. 5th Ed sold me on its character creation. Half an hour start to playing when I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, that works for me. 

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OK, so in reading the last several pages, all the people complaining still seem to be complaining about the damn playtest.  You know what, I DON"T REALLY CARE about the playtest anymore.  I don't want opinions about the playtest.  Now I want to hear from people who have played the actual game, now that it is out.  

 

I get that some are deeply offended by the playtest; I recommend getting over it and moving on.  If you are that mad, don't play.  But as someone interested in making an informed decision about the new version, I really want to hear about the new version, not a years old grudge about a play test that may or may not be similar to the real thing.

 

I'd love to hear how the actual game compares to the playtest that was so horrible,  Scratch that, no, I wouldn't; I'd love to hear how the actual game compares to PF1 as that is what I know (I really don't care about the playtest one way or the other), but as far as I can tell, no one other than Thes has gotten that far yet.

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The lady at the local game store was reading the handbook yesterday when I went, and she seemed to like what she saw. She also shrugged off the playtest as "that's what playtests are for". Second hand, but hey, not a bad thing to hear either.

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1 minute ago, TaleSpinner said:

OK, so in reading the last several pages, all the people complaining still seem to be complaining about the damn playtest.  You know what, I DON"T REALLY CARE about the playtest anymore.  I don't want opinions about the playtest.  Now I want to hear from people who have played the actual game, now that it is out.  

 

I get that some are deeply offended by the playtest; I recommend getting over it and moving on.  If you are that mad, don't play.  But as someone interested in making an informed decision about the new version, I really want to hear about the new version, not a years old grudge about a play test that may or may not be similar or not to the real thing.

 

I'd love to hear how the actual game compares to the playtest that was so horrible, but as far as I can tell, no one other than Thes has gotten that far yet.

 

My only exposure to the playtest was making a character for a pbp here & while there was few issues I had in creating my character I got it ironed out at RCon by a Pathfinder GM (even he had a bit of problem with finding the solution, ha ha). I decided to take a chance with the game. Using my game credit at my FLGs I bought the book the day it came out here. I intend to pick up the Bestiary while over in Eugene next month (21+ days to go!!!!). 

 

I haven't spent allot of time with the book thou, my 2 weekly 5e games take up most of my game time right now. I intend to run 2e games at RCon next year thou, so I need to read!

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2 minutes ago, Cyradis said:

The lady at the local game store was reading the handbook yesterday when I went, and she seemed to like what she saw. She also shrugged off the playtest as "that's what playtests are for". Second hand, but hey, not a bad thing to hear either.

 

My son who now has the new rules, said about the same thing.  He says it reminds him of what they did with Starfinder.  If I can find time I might swipe his book this weekend and check it out myself.

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