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Willing to bet that a number of people are refusing to put money down until they have either played the full version, or managed to get their hands on a friend's copy to peruse.

 

With the help of Hero Labs Online (their demo version lets you build a L1 character; sufficient to test with), I actually got a character put together within an hour (accounting for time distracted, and time poking through the builder and general WTF moments). So, there's that.

 

... it IS like building for 5e. Which I find vaguely entertaining, as long as I can find something that sorta fits what I'm aiming for. 

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2 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

I wonder what Paizo will do if sales remain in freefall?

 

Going by two folks in the book trade (not game stores - for what it is worth, just two different book stores that have RPG sections) it is doing much, much worse than 4e at this point in its production cycle. This should be the point when sales are at their strongest - but....

 

Sample size small enough to be extremely unreliable, but it is what I have right now. (B-a-M! and B&N - both chain stores.)

 

The Auld Grump - yeah, a whopping two data points... not much to base a projection on.

 

I also didn't mind 4e, but the combats were too long.

 

One of the Pazio developers cringed when discussing focus powers and I said "oh it's like an encounter power." :lol:

 

There's a reason why 8 years later, my husband and I still say "Don't blow the daily" in casual conversation to mean, don't waste your big gun.

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Hubby and I usually buy every book out there for D&D lineage stuff, so I would think we are the primo target for Pathfinder 2.  We had the play test, but didn't play it.  I made a few characters, and was underwhelmed by the resulting wimps.  We even bought 4 edition even thought we disliked it immensely.

 

We have not bought PF2, we want to see some non biased reviews first to know if it's worth it.

 

If we, who buy pretty much everything isn't buying, I am not surprised the books are not flying of the shelves.

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9 hours ago, Thes Hunter said:

 

I also didn't mind 4e, but the combats were too long.

 

One of the Pazio developers cringed when discussing focus powers and I said "oh it's like an encounter power." :lol:

 

There's a reason why 8 years later, my husband and I still say "Don't blow the daily" in casual conversation to mean, don't waste your big gun.

Grump says 4e would have done fine in parallel with D&D, but failed as a replacement. They went after the wrong market.

 

I think #2 doesn't even have that excuse.

 

They had plenty of warnings and DIDN'T LISTEN. At least until half their playtesters left.

 

I'm sure they had been congratulating themselves on winnowing down the playtester pool right up to the mass exodus. :devil: Oh, those people did not appreciate our grand vision, we don't need them anyway.

 

Just like the 4e playtest.

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12 hours ago, PaganMegan said:

Grump says 4e would have done fine in parallel with D&D, but failed as a replacement. They went after the wrong market.

 

I think #2 doesn't even have that excuse.

 

They had plenty of warnings and DIDN'T LISTEN. At least until half their playtesters left.

 

I'm sure they had been congratulating themselves on winnowing down the playtester pool right up to the mass exodus. :devil: Oh, those people did not appreciate our grand vision, we don't need them anyway.

 

Just like the 4e playtest.

my exact view is that if they had marketed 4e as D&D Tactics: A Fantasy Combat RPG, as an adjunct line to a more traditional 4e D&D, it would have done quite well - the board games based on the 4e mechanics are quite good. At the least, it would have avoided alienating their previous core audience.

 

At least Paizo isn't quite telling folks 'You know this game you love? Well, it sucks! So we are giving you a brand new game, with no backwards compatibility! Hooray!'

 

I swear, in some ways WotC was almost trying to kill the 4e while it was still in the nest....

 

Oy!

 

The Auld Grump - I have gained a bit of perspective and lost a great deal of anger about 4e - mostly because Pathfinder came along....

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Exactly how backwards-compatible is PF2 supposed to be going to 1, anyway? On a scale of, like, super-easy to super-not, I guess.

 

ETA: Or converting from PF to PF2.

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4 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Exactly how backwards-compatible is PF2 supposed to be going to 1, anyway? On a scale of, like, super-easy to super-not, I guess.

 

ETA: Or converting from PF to PF2.

My understanding is, not at all. As a completely new edition, there's no intended backwards compatibility.

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7 minutes ago, Disciple of Sakura said:

My understanding is, not at all. As a completely new edition, there's no intended backwards compatibility.

Though, unlike 4e D&D, there is a conversion guide.

 

The Auld Grump - not gonna need it, not converting nuthin'!

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On 8/16/2019 at 4:11 PM, kristof65 said:

That doesn't sound too far off from the way 5e does it.   Which makes me wonder - is it possible that PF2 is suffering from an issue 5e has regarding backgrounds?

When my friends & I picked up our first 5e PHB, backgrounds frustrated us.  The problem with backgrounds was the order the rules tell you to do them in - roll your stats, pick your race, pick your class, then pick your background. This leads to a lot of either wasted proficiency choices, or going back and redoing your choices for your class.  We finally realized that 5e PC generation goes so much smoother if roll your stats, choose your race, then choose your background before you pick your class. It's not that any of it's difficult, it's that it's presented in such a way that makes things more difficult than it needs to be. 

I look at the recommended build order as a feature, not a bug.  by going background last you actually can get more flexability.  As there is a blurb that says that if your background duplicates one of your class proficiencies, then you just pick another poficiency.  Great way to get that off the wall proficiency to complete your concept.

 

But as far as PF2 goes, I plan on giving it a shot at some point.  Though I'm pretty satisfied with 5E as my preferred system at this point.

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On 8/16/2019 at 8:15 PM, TheAuldGrump said:

I wonder what Paizo will do if sales remain in freefall?

 

Going by two folks in the book trade (not game stores - for what it is worth, just two different book stores that have RPG sections) it is doing much, much worse than 4e at this point in its production cycle. This should be the point when sales are at their strongest - but....

 

Sample size small enough to be extremely unreliable, but it is what I have right now. (B-a-M! and B&N - both chain stores.)

 

The Auld Grump - yeah, a whopping two data points... not much to base a projection on.

 

Well I can say it completely sold out here @ my flgs. Again, a small sample but people that wanted it (myself included) preordered & he also order store stock. Only thing he has in stock right now is a single copy of the Bestiary & single of the special edition Bestiary. 

 

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So I've perused a PDF copy of the rules and character creation.. and I'm not really sold.. maybe once they put out more books and there are a lot more options.. 

 

Things I dislike so far:

 

there really is no reason for a dump stat now.. no one should ever have a bad stat with all the stat bumps.. which means no one will really have a weakness they have to compensate for early on.. 

Races.. I'm not fond of how they dole out racial abilities over time (1 every 4 levels) .. Elf seems to get stuck with a lot of skill rank longevity options versus the variety some other races get.. 

Too many different Lore skills.. some scenarios were difficult in PF1 with just the small number of Lore skills when your party of 6 didn't have one, but having a ton of specialized ore skills really seems like it's setting a party up for disaster when one of them doesn't have Drunken Master Lore or something needed for an adventure..  There are 37 different lore categories just in the 'common types' list and several of those are unspecific.

 

Equipment special abilities are a whole other animal that are going to require constant referrals to ability tables unless you have a computer aided sheet giving you what things like 'Forceful' mean..   Chainmail has the noisy special trait, but Plate does not.. chainmail has the Flexible trait, but leather does not..   I can't even on the Armor specialization abilities and how those armor types actually work in the real world (i know it's fantasy but still) 

 

Also not going to start on Bulk amounts because they are inconsistent.. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, SamuraiJack said:

Chainmail has the noisy special trait, but Plate does not ...

 

Yeah, that's silly. Chain is mostly very quiet, to the point that a chain shirt under clothing is often not noticed. Plate is, ... not.

 

22 minutes ago, SamuraiJack said:

... chainmail has the Flexible trait, but leather does not.

 

I'm mostly OK with that, since leather armor isn't going to be a bomber jacket, but more likely cuirboilli. Which is harder to wear than plate, but that's a different problem.

 

Of course now we're into the whole fantasy armor thing, which has been silly in every version of D&D. Gygax had apparently seen some drawings and watched some movies and from that came the gloriously stupid mess that is D&D armor. (See also weapon speeds. <_<)

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5 hours ago, Disciple of Sakura said:

Yeah, extra mechanics involved with each and every weapon and armor is a really bad idea. 

Which we all figured out way back in 1e.... AD&D 1e... 

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