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6 hours ago, Crowley said:

Which we all figured out way back in 1e.... AD&D 1e... 

What, you didn't love Weapon Speed Factors?

 

One of the ways Gygax got on my nerves - insisting that people not using the rules as written were 'not really playing the game' - while he was ditching those exact same rules, because, well...they sucked. :grr: (The incredibly cumbersome unarmed combat rules, Weapon Speed Factors...)

 

***

 

The real benchmark will be returns - in six months time, as bookstores return the unsold portions of their initial orders. (This was where WotC learned that 4e was a failure - between 25% and 50% of the initial orders were returned unsold. At the local Border's it was almost 60%.) Then, again, in a year - depending on the distributor.

 

The local B-a-M! has already missed the window on returns for the Playtest editions. Haven't sold them, and can no longer return them for full credit.

 

On the other hand, they have sold out of the 1e Core and Advanced Player's Guides, as well as Curse of the Crimson Throne - again.

 

The Auld Grump

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Half Price Books is also a good indicator.. when 4E came out, 3.5 books started to become scarce and you rarely saw Pathfinder books in the store.. I'll be curious to see how that trend unfolds with P2E

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On 8/19/2019 at 10:29 AM, Disciple of Sakura said:

Yeah, extra mechanics involved with each and every weapon and armor is a really bad idea. 

 

Hey now, I'm not going to stand here and just let RoleMaster get slagged on without speaking up!

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16 minutes ago, lowlylowlycook said:

 

Hey now, I'm not going to stand here and just let RoleMaster get slagged on without speaking up!

You just love the Tiny Animal Critical Chart. <_< (There are times when I love Chart Law. ::P: But don't try it with much loved characters. (When it first came out, it was for use with D&D, mostly.))

 

The Auld Grump

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42 minutes ago, lowlylowlycook said:

 

Hey now, I'm not going to stand here and just let RoleMaster get slagged on without speaking up!

 

Did you want to join in? :poke:

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On 8/20/2019 at 7:20 AM, SamuraiJack said:

Half Price Books is also a good indicator.. when 4E came out, 3.5 books started to become scarce and you rarely saw Pathfinder books in the store.. I'll be curious to see how that trend unfolds with P2E

Just went to my local 1/2 price books and they had a ton of Pathfinder books ( as well as 3rd and 4th ed Wathammer Codexes). There were and hand full 9f 4e books and hardly anything for 2nd ed. What 2nd ed stuff they had was super overpriced.

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On 8/20/2019 at 5:39 PM, Doug Sundseth said:

 

Did you want to join in? :poke:

Never played Rolemaster, but the crit tables are a fun read! ::D:

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Jenny has noticed that people read the P2 book in store, but purchase 1e instead. Even the 1e pocket editions are selling better, and they aren't moving until the hardcovers are sold out. Pocket Core is gone, and one pocket APG is left. Hardcovers for some of the less essential P1 books are selling faster than P2 Core. This is the exact pattern I saw for 3.5 and 4e.

 

But 4e at least had two months of good sales.

 

P2 isn't getting even that.

 

No one is doing anything with the playtest books. BAM is stuck with them.

 

The other local bookstores, not part of any chain, didn't bother with either.

 

We haven't asked at Weekend Anime yet, or Crossroad, so it could be doing well in game stores. But in the book trade it is dead in the water, at least locally.

 

Given lead times Paizo will have dozens of titles in the pipe. This could be a flop they can't recover from.

 

By the way, don't pay too much attention to bestseller lists for the first few months, those represent sales TO the bookstores and chains. Wait for the stores needing restocks. If.

 

I miss Border's, they were a lot more open about what was going on in the trade than BAM is. And our LOCAL management knew what they were doing, better than the home office. ::(:

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1 hour ago, PaganMegan said:

Given lead times Paizo will have dozens of titles in the pipe. This could be a flop they can't recover from.

I sincerely hope not, but it's entirely possible. With the advent of PF2, I won't be giving any further $ to Paizo except maybe in clearance sales on their part. I didn't buy that many books, but it's extremely unlikely that there'll be further purchases in gaming books at this point. Just as well, I guess. My bookshelf is already plenty full of game books.

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The Advanced Player's Guide for PF2 is currently available for playtest.

 

Not downloading it, myself - Megan would murder me in my sleep if it looked like I was planning to try running PF2 again.... (To say that she did not enjoy the PF2 Playtest is to test the limits of language....)

 

The Auld Grump

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I'm not sure how well a one month playtest is gonna help shake the wheat from the chaff. Sounds like more halfhearted nonsense to me, but what do I know. Might be helpful. 

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5 hours ago, CorallineAlgae said:

I'm not sure how well a one month playtest is gonna help shake the wheat from the chaff. Sounds like more halfhearted nonsense to me, but what do I know. Might be helpful. 

 

Only if they actually listen to the feedback. :/

 

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I feel like the Mythic playtest is when their playtesting went downhill. The Mythic Playtest was the last 3 month playtest that I remember taking part in. That and the Advanced Race Guide were Paizo's first real experiences with playtesters saying "this is bad here's why" and Paizo then having to change their carefully pedestalled ideas.

 

Playtests after that tended to be shorter and less effective, almost as though the decision was made to value the pedestal over the real feedback <_<

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4 hours ago, Sylverthorne said:

 

Only if they actually listen to the feedback. :/

 

 

Exactly. It took them months to abandon the most despised parts of the early P2 playtest rules. I'm not sure they would make any significant changes to anything in such a short amount of time unless it was universally panned. Even then... :unsure:

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11 hours ago, NebulousMissy said:

I feel like the Mythic playtest is when their playtesting went downhill. The Mythic Playtest was the last 3 month playtest that I remember taking part in. That and the Advanced Race Guide were Paizo's first real experiences with playtesters saying "this is bad here's why" and Paizo then having to change their carefully pedestalled ideas.

 

Playtests after that tended to be shorter and less effective, almost as though the decision was made to value the pedestal over the real feedback <_<

Yet both of those stand out among the best of Pathfinders offerings.

 

The ARG is excellent for folks that want to build their own worlds - I used it for the ogres in a lot of my games (less physically powerful, less stupid, less evil, leaning toward Lawful Neutral) and Megan used them for her orcs in Eberron (more wise, other things I don't remember).

 

And Mythic... I just love the idea that Hercules, at first level, was still Hercules.

 

Jennys say that PF2 continues to not sell at the local B-A-M!. Last month it was beaten in sales by Mutant City Blues. (Which is an excellent game - just not a big seller. I am guessing that somebody has started a campaign, and, no, it wasn't me. ::): )

 

I... still suspect that PF 2 was the result of panic induced stupidity.

 

The Auld Grump

7 hours ago, CorallineAlgae said:

 

Exactly. It took them months to abandon the most despised parts of the early P2 playtest rules. I'm not sure they would make any significant changes to anything in such a short amount of time unless it was universally panned. Even then... :unsure:

It was the way they kept coming back to them that irked me. They would try a minor tweak to a system that was terrible top to bottom, then be surprised when people were still saying 'Get Rid Of It, Stupid!'

 

The phrase that sticks in my mind - 'This is a playtest, playtests aren't supposed to be fun'. Err, you do realize this is a playtest for a game, right? And that games are supposed to be fun?

 

But is was character generation that stuck in Megan's craw - characters at 1st level were pretty damned useless, and took forever to generate.

 

Then at the retreat we had a chance to see the book itself... and the horrible character generation was still there - and characters nerfed still further. Heritage Feats SUCK! Buying your racial abilities one level at a time. Elf that!

 

The Auld Grump

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