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1 hour ago, TheAuldGrump said:

Yet both of those stand out among the best of Pathfinders offerings.

 

The ARG is excellent for folks that want to build their own worlds - I used it for the ogres in a lot of my games (less physically powerful, less stupid, less evil, leaning toward Lawful Neutral) and Megan used them for her orcs in Eberron (more wise, other things I don't remember).

 

And Mythic... I just love the idea that Hercules, at first level, was still Hercules.

 

Jennys say that PF2 continues to not sell at the local B-A-M!. Last month it was beaten in sales by Mutant City Blues. (Which is an excellent game - just not a big seller. I am guessing that somebody has started a campaign, and, no, it wasn't me. ::): )

 

I... still suspect that PF 2 was the result of panic induced stupidity.

 

The Auld Grump

It was the way they kept coming back to them that irked me. They would try a minor tweak to a system that was terrible top to bottom, then be surprised when people were still saying 'Get Rid Of It, Stupid!'

 

The phrase that sticks in my mind - 'This is a playtest, playtests aren't supposed to be fun'. Err, you do realize this is a playtest for a game, right? And that games are supposed to be fun?

 

But is was character generation that stuck in Megan's craw - characters at 1st level were pretty damned useless, and took forever to generate.

 

Then at the retreat we had a chance to see the book itself... and the horrible character generation was still there - and characters nerfed still further. Heritage Feats SUCK! Buying your racial abilities one level at a time. Elf that!

 

The Auld Grump

 

But I can't elf it until I get the proper elf feats at level 12 :ph34r:

Edited by NebulousMissy
needed purple
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That bit about /all/ racials being feats also bothers me; there are some things that are *redacted!* integral to a given race! You shouldn't need to build piecemeal just to get an elf with proper senses! *vaguely profane rant*

... *grumble*

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I think PF is doomed. ::(:

 

Up until Resonance blew up in their faces, it wasn't really a playtest, it was an unveiling.

 

They just weren't LISTENING.

 

Then they lost half their playtesters over Resonance, and it was too late.

 

The question is will PF 2 suck Paizo down with it?

 

There is nothing vague about my profane rant.

Edited by PaganMegan
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2 hours ago, PaganMegan said:

The question is will PF 2 suck Paizo down with it?

Starfinder seems to be doing pretty well.  I've got friends who have never given sci-fi RPGs a second thought getting into it, and raving about it. And the local FLGS can't keep the core book in stock. 

So they might be OK. 

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2 minutes ago, kristof65 said:

Starfinder seems to be doing pretty well.  I've got friends who have never given sci-fi RPGs a second thought getting into it, and raving about it. And the local FLGS can't keep the core book in stock. 

So they might be OK. 

Okay, so I played D&D back in 79-81 then no more RPGs until trying Starfinder this year. I have really enjoyed SF and the rules seem pretty good. All of the other players in my SF bunch are PF players and have used both PF and D&D. They seem pretty pleased and are generally positive about PF2. I know the aggravation and frustration of beta testing games Mage Knight, Heroclix and Mechwarrior DA] and not having the tester's input listened to. Hopefully the staff at Paizo will be openminded to listen to solid advice and make the game more popular.

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PF2 definitely has a group of supporters who've happily jumped over from PF, but it's hard to get a read on how they're doing beyond that. Doesn't look good for them out here at the fringes, but that doesn't mean much.

 

It's kind of amazing how effectively they've streamlined playtesting and the like with D&D now. Big--mildly ironic--turnaround from where things were when they shat the bed with 4e and Paizo made their big move.

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Not just the Beta, I'm afraid - the Races by Feat method is being handled by most local groups by... dropping PF2 and playing a better game.

 

General consensus is anything but positive. Ranging from 'Nope!' to 'It Sucks!' 

 

D&D 5 on the other hand... is doing pretty good. Not in my group, but in others - including folks whose opinions I value. *EDIT* Taking a while, but PF1 folks seem much more likely to migrate to D&D 5 than to PF2. Also - sales of the Campaign Paths is dropping - and that was a product that D&D 5 GMs were buying as well as PF1 GMs.

 

PF2 sales are also continuing to drop on Amazon - which is never a good sign.

 

I am glad that SF is doing well in other places - here it seems that PF2 dragged it down. It looked, well, okay at least.

 

The Auld Grump

Edited by TheAuldGrump
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On 11/8/2019 at 7:00 PM, TheAuldGrump said:

The Advanced Player's Guide for PF2 is currently available for playtest.

 

Not downloading it, myself - Megan would murder me in my sleep if it looked like I was planning to try running PF2 again.... (To say that she did not enjoy the PF2 Playtest is to test the limits of language....)

 

The Auld Grump

Bloody hell, a 2nd player's guide that soon after the release? Don't these type of things usually wait a while?

 

 

Been seeing PF2 ads on Youtube recently... So I guess they're still making Youtube Advertisers money out of this?

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54 minutes ago, BlazingTornado said:

Bloody hell, a 2nd player's guide that soon after the release? Don't these type of things usually wait a while?

 

 

Been seeing PF2 ads on Youtube recently... So I guess they're still making Youtube Advertisers money out of this?

 

Character creation limitations in PF2 is a complaint I've seen posted about on the Paizo forums over and over. Perhaps sales have been poor enough to urge Paizo to rush out the new Advanced Player's Guide. Hopefully this isn't a rush fix effort. PF2 might've been a better game if they had taken more time during the play test. Whatever the case, it won't affect me. I love original Pathfinder, and Golarion is my favorite fantasy game world ever, but I switched to 5e. All the fun, without the drama. 

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8 hours ago, CorallineAlgae said:

Perhaps sales have been poor enough to urge Paizo to rush out the new Advanced Player's Guide.

 

The classes are not going to be officially available until GenCon so I don't see it as a rush..  I MIGHT give PF2 another go when there is enough character options out there, but it just looks like its a slog.. I'm not sure why anyone thought that changing how races work in a mainstream RPG was ever a good idea..  You look like a dwarf, but you're only sort of dwarfy.. you dont go full dwarf until you are XX level

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10 hours ago, CorallineAlgae said:

 

Character creation limitations in PF2 is a complaint I've seen posted about on the Paizo forums over and over. Perhaps sales have been poor enough to urge Paizo to rush out the new Advanced Player's Guide. Hopefully this isn't a rush fix effort. PF2 might've been a better game if they had taken more time during the play test. Whatever the case, it won't affect me. I love original Pathfinder, and Golarion is my favorite fantasy game world ever, but I switched to 5e. All the fun, without the drama. 

PF 2 might have been a better game if Paizo had LISTENED during the playtest.  <_<

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1 minute ago, Disciple of Sakura said:

I'm pretty comfy with my PF, but I keep hearing all these glowing reviews of D&D 5.0... makes me curious to check it out. What's it like, in comparison to PF/3.x?

Smoother. Fewer fiddly bits. A bit less customization, more balanced. Not as easy to run as 4e for the DM, but easier than 3.x. 

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As a DM, I had no interest in the "board game" like play structure of 4e. I really like fiddly bits and customization, but I definitely hate spending hours building an NPC for my players to murder in a few minutes...

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At-will offensive spells that increase in effectiveness as your character levels kills a lot of my love for 5E, but otherwise it's a solid system.

It's got a few other pitfalls, Expertise hurts non-skill monkeys who'd want to be good at a thing (particularly wizards who'd want to be masters of arcane lore, the bard can easily outclass em with double-prof and a high enough INT).

 

Barbarians get the shaft and the design team is so uncreative that the only archetypes they can come up with since the SCAG is to give them magical attributes. Let me repeat that: Barbarians in 5E are extremely magical now. Barbarians. The pinnacle of pure unrestrained physicality. They're now magical unless you play a Berserker or a Dwarven Battlerager.

 

Unlike Pathfinder, skills are picked at character creation and increase with a proficiency bonus, same as to-hit and spell attack rolls and spell saves... There's ways to learn more proficiencies as the game progresses, such as certain archetypes providing them (usually between 1st-3rd level) or using a feat.

There are a lot fewer skills, which instead apply more broadly, making it easier to avoid trap options.

Feats are an optional rule, not used at every level, instead used as a choice in place of ability score increases at relevant levels. Consequently, they are more powerful than the feats of Pathfinder.

 

The math is a lot less fiddly, Advantage/Disadvantage gets rid of a lot of the annoying modifiers that plague PF.

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