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Legends of Signum

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On 6/18/2018 at 3:34 PM, Glamberry said:

 

I'm not sure if I would call it a high risk. If they were only showing renders and were a new start up company I would agree. But the game is already pretty much done as well as most of the minis, the ones that are not finished yet, they have been showing sculpting wips on and they posted a lot of the concept art on facebook. The company has been around for a good while and I have seen people ordering Minis in Retail and getting good quality Minis. Was the whole freeze thing shady?100% but I do believe Kickstarter would not risk any lawsuit which is why I do believe SD didn't specify any of their claims. Like Odinsgrandson said, going through with a lawsuit would mean that SD likely wouldn't be able to deliver on their own Kickstarter project, which seemed a lot more questionable in some regards than the Signum one (not sure how that project will be profitable). That being said, I did definitely no pledge for all in. That's just too big of a spend for me personally on my hobby to justify. 

 

 

On one hand, they've got some things going for them:

 

- Professional looking kickstarter
- Mini sculpts are largely finished

- Fairly prompt and continuous communication

- Company (probably) has a history getting sculpts made and fulfilling orders and has other income

- The quality of their sculpts indicates that they have been working with industry professionals

 

Risk assessment is kind of a tough thing to call, but there is risk here.

- First time Kickstarter (they aren't accustomed to delivering on a grand scale)

- First time game designer (if you're not just backing for a pile o' minis, this is important).
- Questionable company background (the line started as Legends of Cadwallon, and were sold in the Cadwallon store alongside Rackham recasts).  Signum makes dubious claims about the separation of Cadwallon and Signum.
- The shut down itself is a red flag- although it might be a red herring (because it is hard to believe that Sans Detour are running their company in good faith).

Aside from simply adding to the perceived risk of the project, the shutdown deflated excitement over the project (and this kickstarter has definitely lost the momentum it had).


Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the bad blood between Signum and Stellar/Sans Detour.  Both claim the other sent trolls to attack them.

The big risk is whether Sans Detour feels justified in cutting off their own nose to get back at Signum.  If we look at the same risk assemssment to Sans Detour, here's what I think it looks like:
 

pros:
- Company has delivered crowdfunded RPG books before
- Company sells RPG books (in France).
- Company was able to attain Confrontation license

Cons:

- They've never produced miniatures of any kind before
- They  offer "the highest quality" PVC/ABS mix minis at prices better than a Reaper Bones kickstarter (254 minis, many of them large for $300).
- They unlocked all of their extras when the funding was dropping.

- The Kickstarter page itself required minimal investment in the project (just photoshopping old Rackham photos).

- One of the owners has a store that has gone bankrupt- which indicates that their other revenue streams are limited.
- One of the owners is licensing the Confrontation property to the company- meaning that they can pay practically any amount of money to themselves without risking the license itself being a company asset in case of bankruptcy
- Very Poor communication

- Kickstarter thought that their IP claim had no leg to stand on.

 

Honestly, I think it would be a supreme tragedy if Stellar decides that the most important use of their Kickstarter funds is to put Signum out of business through a protracted legal battle, but I can't really say that I trust their judgement.

 

The trouble is, it would give them an excuse.  I mean, it is entirely possible that they know that they can't deliver on their project without more funds.  Maybe they hope to fund their kickstarter with a legal victory against Signum.  That would be a horrible plan, but I can't give Sans Detour a lot of credit for making good plans.

Edited by odinsgrandson
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On 5/18/2018 at 3:48 PM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Return of the Dragon was a martial arts Street Fighter style board game. I backed it for a few minis. It got delayed. Then it got hit with a mystery IP claim out of nowhere and never delivered. Don't know who or what was behind the IP claim on that one.


From what I recall; it was the Bruce Lee Estate that filed the claim; they were using his name and likeness without permission apparently. I was this close to backing it back in the day...

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

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1 hour ago, green_lumux said:

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

 

That's definitely where some of the animosity comes from, I think the infringement part is at least somewhat settle in that they stopped selling the recasts. If it were in the US there would likely still be a case for monetary damages, but the international nature makes it hard to guess whether they'd try. Signum claims they have nothing to do with Cadwallon, but the claim is questionable.

 

For current infringement there is at least one fairly questionable mini they sell on their website, but isn't part of the kickstarter. My guess would be any of the Signum minis that are on their website but not part of the  kickstarter have some degree of IP risk that Signum recognizes. Whether any of them infringe enough that SD could win a case debatable, but there is the risk of them attracting a lawsuit. Signum could probably eliminate almost all the risk of a lawsuit by dropping the the minis they didn't include in the kickstarter from their website. If they did that the only remaining risk would be SD's grudge.

Edited by cmorse
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I came to similar conclusions as Odinsgrandson. First time Kickstarters are always a risk, in fact i'd argue that's the nature (and appeal?!) to Kickstarter. Personally I am in more for the Minis than the game (if it's fun, great but I wouldn't shed a tear). The fact that the Project lost Momentum is a real shame but I'm not convinced that would mean they can't fullfill. Especially with so much of the product being already finished. 

 

That leaves me as a backer mostly concerned about a possible legal lawsuit. I agree that SD hasn't displayed great judgement so far but putting this Kickstarter in danger would seriously damage their reputation in the business (and likely prevent any future projects on the platform). Impossible? No. However the fact that they put in a IP infringement claim to Kickstarter and then didn't specify or act upon it, knowing that the Campaign would go ahead if they didn't, just doesn't put them in a good light here. I would think that because of the nature of Kickstarters platform they would try to stay away as far as possible from such controversy (hence the immediate freeze) so they really can't have come forward with much. I will definitely follow this with great interest. 

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17 hours ago, cmorse said:

 

That's definitely where some of the animosity comes from, I think the infringement part is at least somewhat settle in that they stopped selling the recasts. If it were in the US there would likely still be a case for monetary damages, but the international nature makes it hard to guess whether they'd try. Signum claims they have nothing to do with Cadwallon, but the claim is questionable.

 

For current infringement there is at least one fairly questionable mini they sell on their website, but isn't part of the kickstarter. My guess would be any of the Signum minis that are on their website but not part of the  kickstarter have some degree of IP risk that Signum recognizes. Whether any of them infringe enough that SD could win a case debatable, but there is the risk of them attracting a lawsuit. Signum could probably eliminate almost all the risk of a lawsuit by dropping the the minis they didn't include in the kickstarter from their website. If they did that the only remaining risk would be SD's grudge.


I don't see how they can claim that they have nothing to do with the Cadwallon shop when their old profile pic ON THE LEGENDS OF SIGNUM fb page, WAS the cadwallon webpage logo, and they have posts about the recasts on there, before the started the legends of signum line and rebranded. lol

Screen Shot 2018-06-21 at 10.26.56 AM.png









They were even origianlly calling their new sculpts "legends of cadwallon", using the same logo graphic they are on signum.

Screen Shot 2018-06-21 at 10.30.24 AM.png

Edited by green_lumux
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21 hours ago, green_lumux said:


From what I recall; it was the Bruce Lee Estate that filed the claim; they were using his name and likeness without permission apparently. I was this close to backing it back in the day...

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

 

Good to know. I was a backer of Return of the Dragon (also only in for a few figures) and nobody ever told me anything about who filed the IP claim (although I had my suspicions).

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On 6/21/2018 at 11:26 AM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Good to know. I was a backer of Return of the Dragon (also only in for a few figures) and nobody ever told me anything about who filed the IP claim (although I had my suspicions).

 

 

The story I had heard was that they got the proper license to use Bruce Lee and Brandon Lee's likenesses, but that their license ran out and they did not (or could not) renew it.  At least according to Alex Lim.  The story sounds plausible- they made such blatant usage of Bruce and Brandon Lee's names and likenesses, and especially claiming official license, that I'd be pretty astonished if the Lee estate didn't know about it.

I honestly can't tell what happened with fulfillment, though.  And losing that license wouldn't necessarily mean that they can't ship to backers that paid when the license was up to date.  Some backers have reported receiving copies, and a few copies of it can be purchased in the wild (Game Kastle is selling them).  Some backers have reported receiving nothing, and absolutely none of the stretch goal/expansion content has been seen anywhere.

(edited as I gathered confirmation on the story).

Edited by odinsgrandson
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Ended up dropping my pledge.  I am still in for one add on,  Queen Zenobia is just such a beautiful model and if I get her through the KS I basically just get free shipping as opposed to getting her through the webstore.

 

I feel there is still too much risk here to go too big.

 

Plus with Lost Kingdom going right now and Eternal War coming up and finishing Bones 4 I just didn't have the money.   I was really only into a couple of the models anyways, which I can just get later through their store, I have too many miniatures on hand and coming in to spend money on extra minis I'm not that into.

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I got a KS message from them. I do like a lot of things but I am not going to back again. I dropped out like the day before the Cobfrontation lock out. I will pick up some stuff on the website later on. 

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Frankly, except for the lack of an end of KS flood of backers(this may still change), I can't really see much of a downturn in the financing if I check the daily stats on Kicktraq.   Most projects have a very flat period in the middle of the funding process.  

 

Anyway, if there's someone with a $150 Core Box pledge that wants to play it just a little bit safer then there's 15 open $135 Early Bird #2 slots open. 

 

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4 hours ago, Gadgetman! said:

Maybe time to change the 'Live' tag to something else?

Also, the Pledge Manager is open, time to add Queen Zenobia.

 

Queen Zenobia is so amazing!  I was in on an EB pledge but had to drop that and decided that I would just get her.

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