Jump to content

Smokestack

Legends of Signum

Recommended Posts

On 6/18/2018 at 3:34 PM, Glamberry said:

 

I'm not sure if I would call it a high risk. If they were only showing renders and were a new start up company I would agree. But the game is already pretty much done as well as most of the minis, the ones that are not finished yet, they have been showing sculpting wips on and they posted a lot of the concept art on facebook. The company has been around for a good while and I have seen people ordering Minis in Retail and getting good quality Minis. Was the whole freeze thing shady?100% but I do believe Kickstarter would not risk any lawsuit which is why I do believe SD didn't specify any of their claims. Like Odinsgrandson said, going through with a lawsuit would mean that SD likely wouldn't be able to deliver on their own Kickstarter project, which seemed a lot more questionable in some regards than the Signum one (not sure how that project will be profitable). That being said, I did definitely no pledge for all in. That's just too big of a spend for me personally on my hobby to justify. 

 

 

On one hand, they've got some things going for them:

 

- Professional looking kickstarter
- Mini sculpts are largely finished

- Fairly prompt and continuous communication

- Company (probably) has a history getting sculpts made and fulfilling orders and has other income

- The quality of their sculpts indicates that they have been working with industry professionals

 

Risk assessment is kind of a tough thing to call, but there is risk here.

- First time Kickstarter (they aren't accustomed to delivering on a grand scale)

- First time game designer (if you're not just backing for a pile o' minis, this is important).
- Questionable company background (the line started as Legends of Cadwallon, and were sold in the Cadwallon store alongside Rackham recasts).  Signum makes dubious claims about the separation of Cadwallon and Signum.
- The shut down itself is a red flag- although it might be a red herring (because it is hard to believe that Sans Detour are running their company in good faith).

Aside from simply adding to the perceived risk of the project, the shutdown deflated excitement over the project (and this kickstarter has definitely lost the momentum it had).


Personally, I'm keeping an eye on the bad blood between Signum and Stellar/Sans Detour.  Both claim the other sent trolls to attack them.

The big risk is whether Sans Detour feels justified in cutting off their own nose to get back at Signum.  If we look at the same risk assemssment to Sans Detour, here's what I think it looks like:
 

pros:
- Company has delivered crowdfunded RPG books before
- Company sells RPG books (in France).
- Company was able to attain Confrontation license

Cons:

- They've never produced miniatures of any kind before
- They  offer "the highest quality" PVC/ABS mix minis at prices better than a Reaper Bones kickstarter (254 minis, many of them large for $300).
- They unlocked all of their extras when the funding was dropping.

- The Kickstarter page itself required minimal investment in the project (just photoshopping old Rackham photos).

- One of the owners has a store that has gone bankrupt- which indicates that their other revenue streams are limited.
- One of the owners is licensing the Confrontation property to the company- meaning that they can pay practically any amount of money to themselves without risking the license itself being a company asset in case of bankruptcy
- Very Poor communication

- Kickstarter thought that their IP claim had no leg to stand on.

 

Honestly, I think it would be a supreme tragedy if Stellar decides that the most important use of their Kickstarter funds is to put Signum out of business through a protracted legal battle, but I can't really say that I trust their judgement.

 

The trouble is, it would give them an excuse.  I mean, it is entirely possible that they know that they can't deliver on their project without more funds.  Maybe they hope to fund their kickstarter with a legal victory against Signum.  That would be a horrible plan, but I can't give Sans Detour a lot of credit for making good plans.

Edited by odinsgrandson
  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/18/2018 at 3:48 PM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Return of the Dragon was a martial arts Street Fighter style board game. I backed it for a few minis. It got delayed. Then it got hit with a mystery IP claim out of nowhere and never delivered. Don't know who or what was behind the IP claim on that one.


From what I recall; it was the Bruce Lee Estate that filed the claim; they were using his name and likeness without permission apparently. I was this close to backing it back in the day...

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, green_lumux said:

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

 

That's definitely where some of the animosity comes from, I think the infringement part is at least somewhat settle in that they stopped selling the recasts. If it were in the US there would likely still be a case for monetary damages, but the international nature makes it hard to guess whether they'd try. Signum claims they have nothing to do with Cadwallon, but the claim is questionable.

 

For current infringement there is at least one fairly questionable mini they sell on their website, but isn't part of the kickstarter. My guess would be any of the Signum minis that are on their website but not part of the  kickstarter have some degree of IP risk that Signum recognizes. Whether any of them infringe enough that SD could win a case debatable, but there is the risk of them attracting a lawsuit. Signum could probably eliminate almost all the risk of a lawsuit by dropping the the minis they didn't include in the kickstarter from their website. If they did that the only remaining risk would be SD's grudge.

Edited by cmorse
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I came to similar conclusions as Odinsgrandson. First time Kickstarters are always a risk, in fact i'd argue that's the nature (and appeal?!) to Kickstarter. Personally I am in more for the Minis than the game (if it's fun, great but I wouldn't shed a tear). The fact that the Project lost Momentum is a real shame but I'm not convinced that would mean they can't fullfill. Especially with so much of the product being already finished. 

 

That leaves me as a backer mostly concerned about a possible legal lawsuit. I agree that SD hasn't displayed great judgement so far but putting this Kickstarter in danger would seriously damage their reputation in the business (and likely prevent any future projects on the platform). Impossible? No. However the fact that they put in a IP infringement claim to Kickstarter and then didn't specify or act upon it, knowing that the Campaign would go ahead if they didn't, just doesn't put them in a good light here. I would think that because of the nature of Kickstarters platform they would try to stay away as far as possible from such controversy (hence the immediate freeze) so they really can't have come forward with much. I will definitely follow this with great interest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, cmorse said:

 

That's definitely where some of the animosity comes from, I think the infringement part is at least somewhat settle in that they stopped selling the recasts. If it were in the US there would likely still be a case for monetary damages, but the international nature makes it hard to guess whether they'd try. Signum claims they have nothing to do with Cadwallon, but the claim is questionable.

 

For current infringement there is at least one fairly questionable mini they sell on their website, but isn't part of the kickstarter. My guess would be any of the Signum minis that are on their website but not part of the  kickstarter have some degree of IP risk that Signum recognizes. Whether any of them infringe enough that SD could win a case debatable, but there is the risk of them attracting a lawsuit. Signum could probably eliminate almost all the risk of a lawsuit by dropping the the minis they didn't include in the kickstarter from their website. If they did that the only remaining risk would be SD's grudge.


I don't see how they can claim that they have nothing to do with the Cadwallon shop when their old profile pic ON THE LEGENDS OF SIGNUM fb page, WAS the cadwallon webpage logo, and they have posts about the recasts on there, before the started the legends of signum line and rebranded. lol

Screen Shot 2018-06-21 at 10.26.56 AM.png









They were even origianlly calling their new sculpts "legends of cadwallon", using the same logo graphic they are on signum.

Screen Shot 2018-06-21 at 10.30.24 AM.png

Edited by green_lumux
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, green_lumux said:


From what I recall; it was the Bruce Lee Estate that filed the claim; they were using his name and likeness without permission apparently. I was this close to backing it back in the day...

 

I think part of the copyright infrigement claim stems from the fact the creators of Legends of Signum run a website that SELL confrontation bootlegs/recasts? The Legends of Signum minis first started here before branching off onto their own website and subsequent kickstarter...

https://cadwallon.com/

 

Good to know. I was a backer of Return of the Dragon (also only in for a few figures) and nobody ever told me anything about who filed the IP claim (although I had my suspicions).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/21/2018 at 11:26 AM, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Good to know. I was a backer of Return of the Dragon (also only in for a few figures) and nobody ever told me anything about who filed the IP claim (although I had my suspicions).

 

 

The story I had heard was that they got the proper license to use Bruce Lee and Brandon Lee's likenesses, but that their license ran out and they did not (or could not) renew it.  At least according to Alex Lim.  The story sounds plausible- they made such blatant usage of Bruce and Brandon Lee's names and likenesses, and especially claiming official license, that I'd be pretty astonished if the Lee estate didn't know about it.

I honestly can't tell what happened with fulfillment, though.  And losing that license wouldn't necessarily mean that they can't ship to backers that paid when the license was up to date.  Some backers have reported receiving copies, and a few copies of it can be purchased in the wild (Game Kastle is selling them).  Some backers have reported receiving nothing, and absolutely none of the stretch goal/expansion content has been seen anywhere.

(edited as I gathered confirmation on the story).

Edited by odinsgrandson
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ended up dropping my pledge.  I am still in for one add on,  Queen Zenobia is just such a beautiful model and if I get her through the KS I basically just get free shipping as opposed to getting her through the webstore.

 

I feel there is still too much risk here to go too big.

 

Plus with Lost Kingdom going right now and Eternal War coming up and finishing Bones 4 I just didn't have the money.   I was really only into a couple of the models anyways, which I can just get later through their store, I have too many miniatures on hand and coming in to spend money on extra minis I'm not that into.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got a KS message from them. I do like a lot of things but I am not going to back again. I dropped out like the day before the Cobfrontation lock out. I will pick up some stuff on the website later on. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Frankly, except for the lack of an end of KS flood of backers(this may still change), I can't really see much of a downturn in the financing if I check the daily stats on Kicktraq.   Most projects have a very flat period in the middle of the funding process.  

 

Anyway, if there's someone with a $150 Core Box pledge that wants to play it just a little bit safer then there's 15 open $135 Early Bird #2 slots open. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Gadgetman! said:

Maybe time to change the 'Live' tag to something else?

Also, the Pledge Manager is open, time to add Queen Zenobia.

 

Queen Zenobia is so amazing!  I was in on an EB pledge but had to drop that and decided that I would just get her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By SamuraiJack
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2087444096/stonehaven-dwarves-vol-2/description
       
      About
       "...Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever."
      -J. R. R. Tolkien
      Dwarves really are the best! While they're often a bit rough around the edges, they have the best accents, are insatiably loot-hungry, and will fight anything that moves—so we are going to make a bunch more of them! 
      We've assembled them into adventuring parties to make it easier for us to pack and ship. You can add an additional adventuring party to your base reward for $22. Additional individual dwarves can be added to your base reward for $5 each. For a slightly larger view of the minis, check them out on our blog. Here are the adventuring parties:
      From Left to Right: Male Dwarven Brawler, Female Dwarven Bard, Male Dwarven Deathknight, Male Dwarven Druid, Female Dwarven Warrior
      The League seeks out the ancient dwarven knowledge hidden deep within the lost caverns. They hope that, in time, civilized dwarves will once again inhabit those hallowed halls. 
      From Left to Right: Male Dwarven Rogue, Female Dwarven Sheildbreaker, Male Dwarven Battlerager, Male Dwarven Mage, Female Dwarven Archer
      Hogg's Tavern is not the sort of place that anyone should visit . . . at least not anyone who values their life or health. Surprisingly, it has regulars. Its patrons are usually adventures past their prime or looking to make a name for themselves. 
      From Left to Right: Female Dwarven Mechanist, Male Dwarven Automaton, Male Dwarven Gunslinger, Female Dwarven Automage, Male Dwarven Investigator
      Not everyone has embraced the "advances" made in the Steam Valley workshops. When the Savages descended on the valley, the Seigebreakers and their constructs helped turn the tide against the invading armies.
      From Left to Right: Female Dwarven Vampire Hunter, Male Dwarven Undead Elite, Male Dwarven Necromancer, Female Dwarven Huntsman, Male Dwarven Warlord
      The lands beyond Raven's Gate are shrouded in perpetual mists and haunted by the undead. Only the very brave or the very foolish venture there. Why not both? 
      From Left to Right: Female Dwarven Barbarian, Female Dwarven Berserker, Female Dwarven Wandsmith, Male Dwarven Fighter, Male Dwarven Barbarian
      The Iron Hills are not an easy country to grow up in. There's bitter cold winters and orcish armies locked in perpetual combat. That's not even mentioning the greatwolves. No one ever mentions the greatwolves.
      Every Stretch Goal we hit will add more dwarves (or dwarf-related miniature items/companions) to the Completionist Set. When we have enough of these for a new adventuring party, a new party will be formed. Here are our stretch goals:
      At $7,500 the Female Dwarven Cleric will be unlocked and added to the Dwarves Vol. 2 Completionist Reward. She will also made available as a $5 add-on.  
      At $10,000 the Male Dwarven Buccaneer will be unlocked and added to the Dwaves Vol. 2 Completionist Reward. He will also be made available as a $5 add-on.
      As we hit these stretch goals, more dwarves will be unleashed!
    • By SamuraiJack
      About this project
       
       
             
       
       
       
       
    • By SamuraiJack
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/685171087/kharn-ages
       
      Some NSFW minis on the KS page, images not included here
       

      KHÂRN-ÂGES is a medieval fantastic skirmish game in which you direct a Spearhead (name given to your miniatures team). These Spearheads are composed of anthropomorphic animals of 54mm (this is an indicative value, many species are larger).
      The figures are sold unassembled and unpainted.
      It's an ambitious project where you can choose from four different factions from the start. A rules book will detail all phases of the game, as well as equipment, spells and scenarios. A double-sided battle mat completes the game material.
      You can discover the universe and follow most heroes in a novel already available in French (it's a good way to start learning!): Khârn-Ages T1: The Embrasement.
      In KHÂRN-ÂGES, you can modulate your compositions without changing miniatures! Indeed a same figurine can correspond to several LEVELS of profiles, and you can equip it as you wish, you have the possibility to play it with different characteristics while changing its weapons and its equipment, or to have access to many different spells for magicians. KHÂRN-ÂGES is a scenario game, it is not about exterminating your opponent (even if it's feasible sometimes!), but fulfilling your goals to win.
      KHÂRN-ÂGES is a game that only requires a few miniatures to play, so you will not have a huge budget to plan to get started and buy your 500 Krowns of heroes to build your first Spearhead: the cost of recruitment of each mini proposed in this campaign is indicated below each model, it can be modulated by the equipment that will be available in the rulebook.
      This campaign offers you to acquire the figurines, the rules, the play mat to fully enjoy your fun experience from the start. The rules are easy to understand and very permissive, but the level of strategy is very high and will seduce the most demanding players. You can discover the fighting engine on our YOUTUBE channel (with English subtitles).
      Last but not least, KHÂRN-ÂGES is a 100% French game, the entire project is developed in the north of France, 40 km separate the workshop of creation and production of our paper printer.
      To date, after nearly 3 years of development, we are proud to present most of the miniatures that will be available during this campaign, the others are being modeled.
      Rules and profile cards have been tested (by our team and a number of seasoned Briskars players). They are currently finalized and in the process of being formatted.

      If we decide to go through a crowdfunding campaign, it's because this project can not succeed without you!
      TGCM is a modest company but has always kept its commitments and has created a substantial community around its first game, Briskars. However, the costs of such an adventure are much higher than those that allowed us to launch our first game.
      In addition to the design phase, the production and molding of figurines, there are many items related to the creation of a game.
      Your contributions will allow the printing of books and profiles and equipment cards, the modeling, the production and packaging of minitures, the control of the production line in our workshop to guarantee you the best quality and the development (we hope you will reach these levels) of many game accessories.
      The goal we are hoping to reach may seem important, but it reflects the reality of the costs and charges we face.
      Achieving this goal will allow the birth of KHÂRN-ÂGES, not to end our days in the sun!
      We are counting on you all to reach it and bring the world of Safar to life...

      Khârns
      Proud and bellicose, they are the archetype of the warrior people, but they are far from having the same character. Their king gone crazy and paranoid after having tortured his people for too long is on the verge of being overthrown, the nobles are slipping into profit and debauchery at King-Khârns, the capital, and some, like Prince Baudry and his brave Paladins remain upright to the point of wanting to overthrow the established order.
      However, all swear by blood and steel, the secular worship of this people. They have a brutal and organized fighting style, but are distinguished mainly by their diversity of profiles: from the heavy armors worn by paladins to the rapid attacks of the advanced vanguards, they have no real weaknesses except the valor of their fighters. They are the stability that a player preferring to fight back will particularly like.   Size 75mm / Base 50mm   Size 70mm / Base 40mm   Size 65mm / Base 50mm   Size 54mm / Base 50mm  
    • By Galladoria Games
      Just wanted to update this thread that we are now live!
       
      Kickstarter
       
      Just wanted to start this topic to let everyone know that we have a new Kickstarter planned for next month! Rise of the Mimics 2, our own brand of wacky Mimics and matching non Mimic accessories will be expanding on Kickstarter in May!
       

    • By Darsc Zacal
      The Kickstarter is now Live:
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/badsquiddogames/amazons-and-dwarves-quality-28mm-female-miniatures
      -


       
      I backed one of Annie’s previous kickstarters, the one with all the forest animals including beavers and moose and bears (oh my).
      I also bought several of her female minis and the sculpts are quite nice and the castings were great quality. Very sharp and clean. I’m very happy with what I’ve ordered and if finances allowed I would back again.
       
  • Who's Online   47 Members, 1 Anonymous, 210 Guests (See full list)

×