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Killer Rabbits: Medieval manuscript art made into miniature


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Guess so:


"A white metal alloy may include antimony, tin, lead, cadmium, bismuth, and zinc (some of which are quite toxic). Not all of these metals are found in all white metal alloys. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_metal

 

"Pewter (/ˈpjuːtər/) is a malleable metal alloy. It is traditionally composed of 85–99% tin, mixed with copper, antimony, bismuth, and sometimes silver or lead, although the use of lead is less common today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewter

 

Also, a discussion about Citadel alloy:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?43789-What-alloy-is-used-in-Citadel-Miniatures&p=834562&mode=linear#post834562

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/23535743/killer-rabbits-medieval-manuscript-art-made-into-m?ref=discovery   About The most unexpected enemy! The cruelest, most vindi

Somehow reminded me of this card.

Plus you can paint one wabbit brown, one wabbit grey, one wabbit black, and one wabbit wit cute widdle spots!     

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Metallurgy is not a class I did well in.  I know what chemicals work with want grades of steel and when titanuin aluminum or glass is appropriate. To me white metal is pot metal is pewter. 

 

Either way 3 USD is a pretty good price for a metal mini.  I have some mild concerns it may be too low but it looks like the producer is working directly with the artist on cost and the main sculpts are done, so I'm willing to take the risk.

 

As for the mix, from Reaper' s tales about their KS and some other vendors, selling separate add-ons makes the KS epodentially more complex.  To me it sounds like they are trying just to keep this as simple as possible and to have something to sell as retail to the market following release. 

 

That is my opinion and I've been wrong before. I do apologise if I have tap danced on anyone's toisies ::):, it wasn't my intent.

 

I think these are cute. They actually caused me to go dig out my guinea pig brigade and get them in like to be painted! These look like a really fun sculpt!

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2 hours ago, redambrosia said:

Your what now? :ik_oops: I know darksword has a herd of guinea pigs (that I need), but you have a whole brigade?! 

 

Bad Squiddo Games has a line of 28mm Guinea Pigs (or Peegs) and Capybara's in both normal and 'weaponized' forms, along with Bunnies now.  She's a pleasure to do business with and the sculpts are quite nice.  Given my wife is a Guinea Pig fanatic I have all of the current sculpts.  :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, redambrosia said:

Your what now? :ik_oops: I know darksword has a herd of guinea pigs (that I need), but you have a whole brigade?! 

brigade might be pushing it but I have 15 guinea pigs armed to the teeth and a heavy fire support capybara from Bad Squiddo Games.  They are absolutely adorable and they are packing some heavy weaponry! 

 

I got ninja'd! :ph34r:

Edited by Kangaroorex
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12 hours ago, Paradoxical Mouse said:

I would even pay more now to get each - as I said in the comments, I'm willing to pay 45 for all 13. And they aren't pewter - they're white metal, which is a bit cheaper.

White metal is likely more expensive, actually. It depends on what mix they're using.

 

I understand that you see it as "but if you do this, I'll give you $45 for all 13 and other people may join in and also give you $45" but you need to understand that you have to see it from their perspective - they have added those figures to the higher pledge levels purposefully for added incentive to convince people to go in for the higher pledge levels. You may be willing to bet that a $45 for all 13 sculpts pledge level would bring in additional backers, but they absolutely must assume that taking away the added incentive from the people who have already pledged for the $90 and $120 levels could convince those people to lower their pledges. They must assume that all 16 people currently pledging for the $90 and $120 levels, could potentially drop down to the $45 level. That takes the $1770 those people are currently pledging down to only $720. Worse yet, they would have to assume that taking that incentive away could cause ill will in those backers and they could end up dropping their pledges altogether.

 

I know that it makes sense to you that paying $45 for 13 miniatures works out to paying about $3.46 each whereas paying $120 for 43 miniatures works out to paying about $2.79 each and that seems to make sense that they would then be making more money off of your pledge. However, if you actually math it out, their side still makes the most sense. They are not losing money by selling the 43 for less per miniature. I don't know how much it actually costs to produce a metal miniature, but simply for my ease of doing math I'm going to say it's $1. So for a cost of $43, they make $77 off of a $120 pledge. On the other hand, by your proposed pledge level, for a cost of $13, they make $32. That would mean that 2 backers at the $45 level would make them $64, which would still not bring the same return as 1 backer at the $120 level. If you could guarantee that you could bring in 3 backers at the $45 level for every $120 backer, then yes, a $45 level could potentially make them more money. But there is no guarantee of that and as popular as this kickstarter appears to be, they only have 116 backers. Rabbits with weapons based on medieval drawings is very niche. They obviously very much have the potential to sell, but only to a very small percentage of a market that is dominated by much larger companies.

 

Incidentally, it is some of those larger companies that have warped the usage of kickstarter in the minds of a lot of backers by practically giving product away to drive additional sales because they can afford to do so. You have to remember that the point of kickstarter is not to give the backers the best deal possible, the point of kickstarter is to help small companies launch a product that they cannot afford to launch on their own. In this specific case, we're talking about a sculptor who does commission work, who doesn't even currently have a webstore and sells some of his sculpts via paypal, being helped out by another small company who successfully previously ran a couple of small kickstarters.

 

Yes, you can often get really great deals by pledging for kickstarters, but the point of any campaign is to support a project and/or creator that you believe in, not pester them into giving you what you want to their own possible detriment.

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29 minutes ago, Guindyloo said:

White metal is likely more expensive, actually. It depends on what mix they're using.

 

I understand that you see it as "but if you do this, I'll give you $45 for all 13 and other people may join in and also give you $45" but you need to understand that you have to see it from their perspective - they have added those figures to the higher pledge levels purposefully for added incentive to convince people to go in for the higher pledge levels. You may be willing to bet that a $45 for all 13 sculpts pledge level would bring in additional backers, but they absolutely must assume that taking away the added incentive from the people who have already pledged for the $90 and $120 levels could convince those people to lower their pledges. They must assume that all 16 people currently pledging for the $90 and $120 levels, could potentially drop down to the $45 level. That takes the $1770 those people are currently pledging down to only $720. Worse yet, they would have to assume that taking that incentive away could cause ill will in those backers and they could end up dropping their pledges altogether.

 

I know that it makes sense to you that paying $45 for 13 miniatures works out to paying about $3.46 each whereas paying $120 for 43 miniatures works out to paying about $2.79 each and that seems to make sense that they would then be making more money off of your pledge. However, if you actually math it out, their side still makes the most sense. They are not losing money by selling the 43 for less per miniature. I don't know how much it actually costs to produce a metal miniature, but simply for my ease of doing math I'm going to say it's $1. So for a cost of $43, they make $77 off of a $120 pledge. On the other hand, by your proposed pledge level, for a cost of $13, they make $32. That would mean that 2 backers at the $45 level would make them $64, which would still not bring the same return as 1 backer at the $120 level. If you could guarantee that you could bring in 3 backers at the $45 level for every $120 backer, then yes, a $45 level could potentially make them more money. But there is no guarantee of that and as popular as this kickstarter appears to be, they only have 116 backers. Rabbits with weapons based on medieval drawings is very niche. They obviously very much have the potential to sell, but only to a very small percentage of a market that is dominated by much larger companies.

 

Incidentally, it is some of those larger companies that have warped the usage of kickstarter in the minds of a lot of backers by practically giving product away to drive additional sales because they can afford to do so. You have to remember that the point of kickstarter is not to give the backers the best deal possible, the point of kickstarter is to help small companies launch a product that they cannot afford to launch on their own. In this specific case, we're talking about a sculptor who does commission work, who doesn't even currently have a webstore and sells some of his sculpts via paypal, being helped out by another small company who successfully previously ran a couple of small kickstarters.

 

Yes, you can often get really great deals by pledging for kickstarters, but the point of any campaign is to support a project and/or creator that you believe in, not pester them into giving you what you want to their own possible detriment.

I didn't think of that. I suppose I am biased.

 

I see the purpose of backing a kickstarter as a way to provide input on a new business or line. Otherwise, preorders function much the same way. I honestly don't understand the need for discounts for the kickstarter - again, I believe in Kickstarter as a way to get crowd investments. Personally, I wouldn't be offended if any company continued to sell or market a KS product for the same price as the KS after the fact - the point of Kickstarter is to get your product or project off the ground, potentially with input that you wouldn't otherwise receive. 

 

I have found a person who is willing to go in with me so I can get that bagpiper, but if it weren't for that, I would probably completely pull from the project at this point. Yes, I could afford the $120 pledge easily. But I don't want to get 30 extra minis I don't need or want. I have no idea what the usage case would even BE for 40 killer rabbits. 

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I have to agree.  I'm interested, but not in getting 4x of many of the minis just so I can get the "exclusives".  That bagpiper is definitely interesting, but not interesting enough to go in on multiples of the regular minis. 

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13 minutes ago, Paradoxical Mouse said:

I didn't think of that. I suppose I am biased.

 

I see the purpose of backing a kickstarter as a way to provide input on a new business or line. Otherwise, preorders function much the same way. I honestly don't understand the need for discounts for the kickstarter - again, I believe in Kickstarter as a way to get crowd investments. Personally, I wouldn't be offended if any company continued to sell or market a KS product for the same price as the KS after the fact - the point of Kickstarter is to get your product or project off the ground, potentially with input that you wouldn't otherwise receive. 

 

I have found a person who is willing to go in with me so I can get that bagpiper, but if it weren't for that, I would probably completely pull from the project at this point. Yes, I could afford the $120 pledge easily. But I don't want to get 30 extra minis I don't need or want. I have no idea what the usage case would even BE for 40 killer rabbits. 

If you can easily afford the $120 and believe in supporting the company, then getting that pledge and sharing with friends/people at your FLGS/random strangers who would potentially turn into future customers to buy more from the company in the long run would be a great way to support them. Likewise, if you don't want to have to figure out what to do with the extras, that's perfectly reasonable, but then supporting the company would be to pledge for what you do want and then support them further by purchasing the additional figures at retail. But getting exactly what you want or else you'll pull your pledge from the project entirely is not putting supporting the company as your priority, it's putting yourself as the consumer as the priority. And that's fine, it's your money, you are absolutely entitled to do whatever you please with it, but understand and be realistic about what your priority is. Your input on a project is only valuable if it's aimed at providing the creator with further success, not if its aim is only to get you what you want.

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1 hour ago, Guindyloo said:

Incidentally, it is some of those larger companies that have warped the usage of kickstarter in the minds of a lot of backers by practically giving product away to drive additional sales because they can afford to do so. You have to remember that the point of kickstarter is not to give the backers the best deal possible, the point of kickstarter is to help small companies launch a product that they cannot afford to launch on their own.

 

That's certainly what the company is hoping for. But any economic exchange is about providing value to both sides, and the value for me is often in getting stuff cheap.

 

If some of the value for you is in charity (which is a legitimate reason, IMO), great. Or if you really want to get a company to regularly produce a new product line that you will continue to buy in the future, that's great too. But there's nothing wrong with negotiating (well, some combination of hectoring and begging, really :rolleyes:) to get a deal that works better for you. Nor is there anything wrong with a company saying, "Nope, not interested in that particular value proposition" and not satisfying that potential backer.

 

This is business (or should be) on both sides and should be evaluated in that way. If the exchange of money for the possibility of getting something makes sense on both sides, go for it. If not, not.

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2 hours ago, Guindyloo said:

Yes, you can often get really great deals by pledging for kickstarters, but the point of any campaign is to support a project and/or creator that you believe in, not pester them into giving you what you want to their own possible detriment.

 

Plus you can paint one wabbit brown, one wabbit grey, one wabbit black, and one wabbit wit cute widdle spots! ::P:

 

Spoiler

GettyImages-128419457-585b25943df78ce2c3

 

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39 minutes ago, Doug Sundseth said:

 

That's certainly what the company is hoping for. But any economic exchange is about providing value to both sides, and the value for me is often in getting stuff cheap.

 

If some of the value for you is in charity (which is a legitimate reason, IMO), great. Or if you really want to get a company to regularly produce a new product line that you will continue to buy in the future, that's great too. But there's nothing wrong with negotiating (well, some combination of hectoring and begging, really :rolleyes:) to get a deal that works better for you. Nor is there anything wrong with a company saying, "Nope, not interested in that particular value proposition" and not satisfying that potential backer.

 

This is business (or should be) on both sides and should be evaluated in that way. If the exchange of money for the possibility of getting something makes sense on both sides, go for it. If not, not.

And like I said, there's nothing wrong with getting a deal being your priority, but once a company has declined the request, I don't think that pestering them until they give in is an appropriate tactic on a platform that clearly states that it is not a store and whose goal is "to help bring creative projects to life." It's very straightforward that haggling is not an intended function of kickstarter, but rather there are different pledge levels that you can choose from depending on what level of support you would like to give. They use the word "support" quite liberally, I've noticed; the entire section where you select your pledge level is labeled "Support" and when you pledge, the site thanks you for supporting the creator. 

 

Certainly things have a tendency to evolve as they get bigger, for better or worse, and I would agree that kickstarter has evolved more toward the business end, again with larger companies pushing it that way by being as flexible as they can afford to be and offering things like add-ons and free stretch goals. But I would argue that this has been detrimental to small creators who need the platform more. Were the original intention for kickstarter to just function as a store for preorders, I would concede more, but it's not meant to be that.

 

Again, priorities change but I personally think that they should change based on whose campaign it is. If Reaper's running a campaign, sure, expect to get a good deal because they can afford to give you one. But a creator who isn't even really a company that is just trying to get a project out into the world? ...I just think there should be a difference in expectations between walking into Walmart vs. walking into a locally owned Mom and Pop store. Sure, don't buy something that you don't think is worth it, but also understand that Mom and Pop have different expenses and means and have to run their business differently than Walmart does, no matter what street they happen to be located on. If you still choose to shop at Walmart, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think there's something wrong with trying to force Mom and Pop into bending to your will.

 

Edited by Guindyloo
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2 hours ago, Paradoxical Mouse said:

I have no idea what the usage case would even BE for 40 killer rabbits. 

 

 

An army.  I'd love to get 40, but can only afford 20 (am splitting an order with a fiend).   I'm making an Easter themed force to go with my Christmas and Halloween armies.   And I saw someone in the KS comments saying they were going to use them against their Eureka Frogs.

 

 

I think this Kickstarter is geared much more towards the gamer than the painter/collector

 

I'm hoping they unlock the snail rider, so I can get a whole unit's worth when it hits retail.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Chris Palmer
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The intended function of Kickstarter is, and has always been, to get people to give money to other people because they both agree that would be a good thing. In some cases, this has been of the form, "If you give me money, I will enact my dream of a musical with 37 dogs, 3 cats, and a capuchin monkey for a cast and you will feel great for having help to make that happen." In other cases, that has been, "I have this great product and I need seed money. Give me some and I'll give you stuff." And in other cases, it's been, "I'm selling 3 dozen hamburgers every day at lunch and I would like to sell 5 dozen hamburgers and 2 dozen tacos every day at lunch. I'll gladly give you a hamburger Tuesday if you pay me today."

 

I don't see any of these as particularly more virtuous than putting up a billboard to try to sell widgets in Widgets R Us.

 

And I don't see anything wrong with asking for what you want. It's at least possible that a large enough part of your potential customer base will want a specific change that could make them happier and you more money for the same effort.

 

But at some point asking an already answered question becomes rude. And rudeness is seldom a good choice.

 

39 minutes ago, Guindyloo said:

I do think there's something wrong with trying to force Mom and Pop into bending to your will.

 

I take the use of "force" here as adding an emotional loading that isn't particularly appropriate. No force is involved in asking for something different than what the project creator has offered.

 

That said, I think that many project runners try to justify their decisions in ways that are unwise: "I don't want to give you exactly what you want because A, B, and C." This invites replies of the form, "But A doesn't apply, I don't care about B, and you could satisfy C in this other way that is ever so much better." The better (IMO) way to handle that would be something like, "We're very happy that you are interested enough in our project to comment. Based on our research and planning, and after examining your suggestion, the current project offerings constitute the best way to satisfy both our business needs and our potential customers. We hope that you see something that you will like enough to support us, but if not we completely understand. Perhaps our retail offerings after the project is complete will work better for you." (Reaper does this fairly well, btw.)

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