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The KAMUT/FPilot Army List Challenge


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Hi.

 

In the "Doctrine and the Single Centurion" thread, KAMUT and I discussed how Companies of the various Armies could be broken down. KAMUT set his "ideal" Company at 7500 Points, the Platoon Pointage varying from Army to Army on how each divided that Company into Platoons.

 

Ritterlich, Adon/NADO, Malvernis: 4 Platoons/Company, averaging 1875 Pts/Platoon

Terrans, Rach: 5 Platoons/Company, averaging 1500 Pts/Platoon

Templars: 6 Platoons/Company, averaging 1250 Pts/Platoon

Psyros: 8 Platoons/Company, averaging 938 Pts/Platoon

 

Now, the "Challenge" is in deriving how equipment and personnel are assigned to these Platoons. The Platoon is the building block that eventually makes the whole Army List.

 

So, let me show examples before we get to the main challenge.

 

PSYRO PLATOON TYPES

 

Drone Platoon: 12 Drones

 

Enforced Drone Platoon: 8 Drones and 1 Aggressor-A, or 7 Drones and 1 Aggressor-B

 

Alpha Aggressor Platoon: 3 Aggressor-A's

 

Alpha Aggressor Platoon Variation: 2 Aggressor-A's and 4 Drones

 

Beta Aggressor Platoon: 2 Aggressor-B's and 2 Drones

 

Psyro Mix Force Platoon: 3 Drones, 1 Aggressor-A and 1 Aggressor-B

 

Since the Psyro Doctrine (what we know of it) isn't tied to traditional military definitions, this definition of Platoons is only notional. But at the same time, it appears to fit the Psyro's general modus operandi and what we do know of them.

 

* * *

 

The Challenge

 

Derive the standard type Platoons for the mainstream Armies. You already have the average Pointage above. For elbow room, you can go over or under by as much as 10 points, as machinery can be upgraded or downgraded as needed.

 

The Platoon definitions:

 

LINE INFANTRY--ASSAULT

 

LINE INFANTRY--FIRE SUPPORT

 

GRENADIER INFANTRY--ASSAULT

 

GRENADIER INFANTRY--FIRE SUPPORT

 

AIRMOBILE INFANTRY--ASSAULT

 

AIRMOBILE INFANTRY--FIRE SUPPORT

 

CAV LANCERS (MAIN BATTLE)

 

CAV HUSSARS (SCOUT/FLANKERS)

 

ARMOR LANCERS (AFV MAIN BATTLE)

 

ARMOR HUSSARS (AFV SCOUT/FLANKERS)

 

AIR CAVALRY (GUNSHIPS AND ESCORTS)

 

Use the information from the Journals of Recognition to combine vehicles, squads and CAVs into Platoon units. Who has what, and in what quantities?

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Well, I see this idea hasn't drawn much interest.

 

Being a Terracentrist, I decided to try to concoct some Terran units. (Based entirely on KAMUT's 1500 Point Target.)

 

*SUPER CAV TROOP

2 X THUNDERBIRD + 1 X RONIN, OR

1 X THUNDERBIRD, 1 X STARHAWK VI, 1 X CENTURION, OR

3 X CENTURION, OR

2 X CENTURION + 1 X STARHAWK VI, OR

2 X STARHAWK VI + 1 X CENTURION

 

*MAIN BATTLE CAV TROOP, "LARGE" CAVS

4 X RONIN, OR

4 X DUELIST, OR

4 X GLADIATOR II, OR

4 X FALCON, OR

4 X STARHAWK V, OR

4 CAVS OF ANY OF THE TYPES ABOVE IN COMBINATION

 

*MAIN BATTLE CAV TROOP, "MEDIUM" CAVS

5 X WARLORD, OR

5 X ARCHER, OR

5 X KATANA, OR

5 CAVS OF ANY OF THE TYPES ABOVE IN COMBINATION

 

*MAIN BATTLE CAV TROOPS, MIX OF "LARGE" AND "MEDIUM"

2 X FALCON OR 2 X STARHAWK V (OR ONE OF EACH) + 3 CAVS OF THE "MEDIUM" TYPES, OR

1 X DUELIST (OR 1 X GLADIATOR II) + 4 CAVS OF THE "MEDIUM" TYPES

 

NOTE: THE ONLY "SUPRESSION" CAV AVAILABLE TO THE TERRANS IS THE KNIGHT. IT CAN BE SUBSTITUTED FOR ANY OF THE "MEDIUM" CAVS IN THE TWO TROOP TYPES ABOVE.

 

*FIRE SUPPORT CAV TROOP

4 X SOVEREIGN III (OR 4 X REGENT, OR 4 CAVS OF EITHER TYPE IN COMBINATION) + SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (WHICH MAY BE A LONGBOW, A HARPY, A MERLIN, A TSUISEKI OR 2 X KIKYU)

 

To Be Continued...

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Ok, here's what I envision a Rach main battle line Cav platoon might look like if I were to meet them in battle and they were fielding all KODA works. I don't know where these come out points wise but with crew upgrades they could do 1500pts. or more.

 

 

Balanced-

 

1-'70 Dictator

1-Dictator(armor upgrade)

1-Vanquisher(upgraded TL & armor)

1-Conquerer

 

Hard killing-

 

2 -'70 Dictators

2-Dictators

 

OR

 

3- '70 Dictators and a Kahn

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TERRAN UNITS PART 2

 

On the FIRE SUPPORT TROOP above: some commanders have the option to replace one FIRE SUPPORT CAV with a KNIGHT (in the "Fusileer" role.)

 

On ESM and SCOUT CAVS: making units entirely of ESM and/or SCOUT CAVS, while seemingly attractive, don't really make much military sense. It is more likely to assign ESM or SCOUT CAVS to MAIN BATTLE TROOPS, replacing 1 "MEDIUM" CAV with 2 X SPARTAN, or a "LARGE" CAV with 2 X ESM CAVS of either TALON or RAPTOR type, or a "MEDIUM" CAV with an ESM CAV and a SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (KIKYU type). This substitution would perhaps only occur in one TROOP of a TURMA.

 

Alternatively, the TURMA can form a CAV HUSSAR TROOP as below:

 

*CAV HUSSAR TROOP

3 X "MEDIUM" CAVS (either KATANA or KNIGHT type, perhaps with Movement upgrades)

2 X SPARTAN

1 X RAPTOR or TALON

1 X SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (KIKYU, LONGBOW, or HARPY type)

 

The CAV HUSSAR TROOP's missions would not only include scouting and reconnaissance, but also flanking movement and "rapid reaction" to assist MAIN BATTLE or FIRE SUPPORT TROOPS as needed.

 

More to come...

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one think I note about Psyros, I don't think they would form units as distinctly as the other entities in CAV. whereas, combat to a psyro is merely a protocal, the convert their drones into fighting machines as part of a responce to a percieved threat, or an aquisition that may involve the use of force

 

Drones are resource gatherers, basic labor. I would liken them to a bee hive, or ant colony, whereas everyone and everything has a specific focus.

 

this is interesting, ah, lemme post some section disciplines to round out this discussion.

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TERRAN UNITS CONTINUED

 

*MAIN BATTLE TANK TROOP, LANCERS

10 TOTAL VEHICLES, OF WHICH

7 OR 8 X MAIN BATTLE TANKS (LANCE or WOLF types), +

2 OR 3 X FIRE SUPPORT TRACKS (FLAIL or RYOSHI types)

 

*MAIN BATTLE TANK TROOP, HUSSARS

9 TOTAL VEHICLES, OF WHICH

6 OR 7 X MAIN BATTLE TANKS (NAGINATA or DINGO types), +

2 OR 3 X FIRE SUPPORT TRACKS (FLAIL or RYOSHI types)

 

*FIRE SUPPORT TANK TROOP

12 TOTAL VEHICLES, OF WHICH

10 OR 11 X FIRE SUPPORT TRACKS (FLAIL or RYOSHI types)

1 OR 2 X MAIN BATTLE TANKS (LANCE, WOLF, NAGINATA or DINGO)

 

*MOTOR RECON TROOP

14 TOTAL VEHICLES, OF WHICH

12 OR 13 X WHEELED AFVS (STILETTO, SABER or ASHIGARU types)

1 OR 2 X TSUKAI APCS WITH INFANTRY STANDS (usually, but not always, REGULARS)

 

(The main role of the MOTOR RECON TROOP, besides scouting, would be security of roads, towns and supply convoys. Often the MOTOR RECON forces would be serving alongside Military Police units.)

 

*DISMOUNTED LIGHT INFANTRY PLATOON

22 X REGULAR STANDS

 

*DISMOUNTED GRENADIER INFANTRY PLATOON

16 X POWERSUIT STANDS

 

*AIRMOBILE INFANTRY PLATOON

4 X CZAR APCS WITH 12 X REGULAR STANDS, +

ESCORT AIRCRAFT (2 X KIKYU, OR 1 X LONGBOW, HARPY, MERLIN OR TSUISEKI)

 

*AIRMOBILE GRENADIERS PLATOON

6 X CZAR APCS WITH 6 X POWERSUIT OR MORTAR STANDS, +

ESCORT AIRCRAFT (2 X KIKYU, OR 1 X LONGBOW, HARPY, MERLIN OR TSUISEKI)

 

*AIRMOBILE COMBINED PLATOON

3 X CZAR APCS WITH 9 X REGULAR STANDS,

2 X CZAR APCS WITH 2 X POWERSUIT OR MORTAR STANDS, +

ESCORT/SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (1 X KIKYU)

 

*RAPID REACTION AIRMOBILE PLATOON

6 X MERLINS WITH 6 X REGULAR STANDS

ESCORT/SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (2 X KIKYU, OR 1 X LONGBOW, HARPY, MERLIN OR TSUISEKI)

 

*MOTORIZED LIGHT INFANTRY PLATOON

5 X TSUKAI APCS WITH 15 X REGULAR STANDS OR,

4 X TSUKAI APCS WITH 12 X REGULAR STANDS +

3 X ESCORT VEHICLES (OF SABRE, STILETTO or ASHIGARU type)

NOTE: 1 OR 2 TSUKAIS ABOVE COULD SUBSTITUTE 1 X MORTAR STAND FOR 3 X REGULAR STANDS.

 

*MOTORIZED GRENADIER INFANTRY PLATOON

8 X TSUKAI APCS WITH 8 X POWERSUIT OR MORTAR STANDS OR,

6 X TSUKAI APCS WITH 6 X POWERSUIT OR MORTAR STANDS +

4 X ESCORT VEHICLES (OF SABRE, STILETTO or ASHIGARU type)

 

More to come...

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TERRAN UNITS CONTINUED

 

*BATTLEFIELD AIR SUPPORT DETACHMENT

12 X GUNSHIP AIRCRAFT (of KIKYU, LONGBOW, HARPY, MERLIN or TSUISEKI types)

NOTE: These aircraft are usually arranged in flights of 3 or 4 machines of either the same type or of at least the same movement performance.

 

*MISSILE ARTILLERY DETACHMENT

5 X MISSILE LAUNCHER VEHICLES (of WHISPER or RIPPER types), +

2 X WHEELED AFVS (STILETTO, SABER or ASHIGARU types) and

1 X TSUKAI APC WITH INFANTRY STAND(S) (usually REGULARS)

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TERRAN UNITS, COMMENTARY

 

Well, after going through the exercize, I suppose my initial definitions weren't very good ones. There was really no point in dividing Infantry into "Assault" and "Fire Support" as a force can have both types of Stands in the same Platoon, and likely such an arrangement would be a commonplace thing.

 

The fact that the Terrans don't have Tracked APCs means that I can't create "Mechanized" Infantry Platoons, although Motorized Powersuit Infantry fill this role anyway. If I were a vehicle designer, perhaps I'd combine the Tsukai's basic layout with tracked suspension borrowed from the Naginata or Ryoshi for a Halftrack or Fulltrack version.

 

The fact that "Mechanized" forces aren't baseline in the Terran system may mean a reliance on Airmobile forces over ground-mobile/Motorized ones. All of a sudden Apocalypse Now!-variety Airmobile strike forces are looking attractive.

 

Combining the Vehicle types into coherent units was the toughest task, as they all have different strengths and widely variable point costs. Now I have to see how they do on the battlefield.

 

Hey 0311, keep it going with the Rach Troops!

 

Who's going to work the other Armies?

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On ESM and SCOUT CAVS: making units entirely of ESM and/or SCOUT CAVS, while seemingly attractive, don't really make much military sense. It is more likely to assign ESM or SCOUT CAVS to MAIN BATTLE TROOPS, replacing 1 "MEDIUM" CAV with 2 X SPARTAN, or a "LARGE" CAV with 2 X ESM CAVS of either TALON or RAPTOR type, or a "MEDIUM" CAV with an ESM CAV and a SPOTTER AIRCRAFT (KIKYU type). This substitution would perhaps only occur in one TROOP of a TURMA.

 

Actually I run light striker units all the time, and they have a valid tactical sense. High speed Recon with moderate assault capabilities, mostly against soft targets. they are incredible effective especially on larger tables, where their movement can be really demonstrated. Cross country on a tactical map, units like these would be invaluable.

 

CAV Recon (Light Striker unit)

 

Talon

Strike Puma (modified)

Strike Puma (modified)

Raptor (Modified)

 

Also as suggested by Frank Vickers, another good light organization is Light Fire Support

 

Talon

Raptor

Raptor

Raptor

 

I have been tempted to try 3 light Striker sections, with a light fire support section. Could prove to be interesting, with more than enough pointage left over for more air support and OBCS. (our typical 7500).

 

Small unit sections have their place as with all things, and a unit like this, I'd definately put some experience in the seat to maximize their effectiveness.

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*Shrug*

 

One of my rationales of this task was to keep the modifications and upgrades to a minimum, so as to better show "regular" forces as an Army would field them. The more an Army piles Veteran crews or modded hardware into a unit, the more it moves away from a mainstream unit toward an elite unit.

 

Besides, my CAV HUSSAR TROOP isn't too different from what you have, only that I included Main Battle CAVs.

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well, look at variants like this; take an M1 Abrams in the US and compare it to an M1 Abrams in Saudi Arabia, and a K9 in South Korea. All three tanks are identical, but there are three variants being used.

 

I beleive we the US are still using M1 Abrams A3, while the Saudis are using the A4 (slightly more sophisticated electronics) I'm not so sure about the K9 tank, but the Koreans probably have an entirely different electronics rig in them.

 

Variants have little to do with elite military forces, but rather the preferred doctrine or finances of the country buying the units they are using. Of course, when you get into stuff like the Seals, Delta or Omega, they are on a whole different playing field, even when there isn't a "war" being fought.

 

So look at these section limits as a target budget, every army maintains a unit by unit budget, and it varies from country to country, situation to situation.

 

Elite forces may have a little more to play with, or access to stuff the regular army doesn't have. They are taught the weapons and tactics of their enemies as well as their own. In a nutshell, they have to be able to survive on their own, and adapt to many sitiuations, their budget allows for that.

 

For example, we have 1500 points per CAV section for both Rach and Terrans, it may be a simular budget, but perhaps the Doctrine is different, for example.

 

The Rach training Doctrine introduces the average Rach Soldier to trial by fire, to account for this, the majority of their excess points would go to Pilot upgrades, maybe WSO upgrades, the Rach focus on their crew training.

 

The Terran training Doctrine focuses on research and equipment; the Terrans may be better equipped, so they may focus on armor upgrades and chassis' with a bit more cost to them. Though Terran Special Forces are apt to use more expereinced crews in units like Katanas (like the fluff says).

 

the 1875 points can differ from Ritterlich, AEC and Malvernis in the same way.

 

Stock units are factory built, nothing more, armies tend to modify what they can to suit their overall warfighting doctrine.

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I think when looking to establish a war fighting doctrine one first has to look at the government running the show, their strategic ambitions, the capabilities of their potential enemies, their technological and production bases, and the numbers and strengths of their peoples.

 

So for the Rach we would have a strong militaristic confrontational government looking to expand its sphere of influence with war as necessary pitted against determined well equipped adversaries. They are able to produce and sustain larger standing armies that enjoy a rough technical parity with their neighbors. They posses a huge population of tenacious warlike people used to hard times and sacrifice.

 

So how do we apply this to the Cav universe in game terms.

 

1. To produce and sustain such massive armies I believe they would need to have a high level of standardization. So what you would see in a Rach army Cav superiority section would be a mix of Dictators,Vanquishers,Conquerors,Kahns,and maybe a few updated or old model Tyrants. this level of standardization would apply to the rest of the army as well.

 

2.To second what Kamut said I don't believe these guys with the large armies they maintain and their warlike traits and numbers allowing them to accept loss would be to worried or able to upgrade or replace machinery until they felt it necessary instead allowing the skill and tenacity of their people to carry the day.

 

3. They would be very reluctant to ally themselves formally with another nation but would fight independantly against the same adversary if in their interest.

 

4. They would accept defeat only at the very last and use whatever means necessary to achieve victory.

 

5. They would not be adverse to using others(Mercs) discreetly to promote or further their interests.

 

Just a few thoughts.

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