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Pre-Launch Bones 5 Excitement thread

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I had a Privateer Press resin model droop, bent at the waist. A biped slowly became a quadruped. But I have not yet had this problem with any of the Bones minis. Just the usual floppy swords and rubber spears issue, which is mostly a smaller model issue.

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I wonder if it has anything to do with where in the production run they are.  Maybe the mix was slightly off, maybe the process of setting the plastic was interrupted too early?  of course the only way to know would be to find a way to tag them with some sort of batch code.   

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6 minutes ago, NebulousMissy said:

I had a Privateer Press resin model droop, bent at the waist. A biped slowly became a quadruped. But I have not yet had this problem with any of the Bones minis. Just the usual floppy swords and rubber spears issue, which is mostly a smaller model issue.

this is interesting.  ive done many resin models and none have had this issue. none from privateer although i have assembled my dracodile...

 

Sanjay

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2 minutes ago, Crowley said:

I haven't noticed any real droop with my dragons either. *shrug*

 

And as I just got a job offer, backing Bones 5 is no longer a worry! WooHoo!!

 

Bring on the dragons!! 

congrats.

 

sanjay

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1 minute ago, StarFyre said:

this is interesting.  ive done many resin models and none have had this issue. none from privateer although i have assembled my dracodile...

 

Sanjay

 

Their earlier attempts at resins were done poorly. Turned me off of their resin kits for a few years. Luckily "a few years" was what it took for them to figure out their mix and for the old stock to cycle out of stores.

 

With my Bones Cinder I've found tension works to keep it standing. The legs were cast wide by a few millimeters. I squeezed the legs together then glued them to the base and reinforced with green stuff. Keeping the material under tension like that seems to have worked for me.

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My Viridius had the opposite problem, I thought his wings were too vertical and tried to heat and set them to have a curve to them, that didn't stay, over the course of a week or so they stood right back up.

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Sorry - I'm going full nerd here.  I am an engineer, so it happens ...

 

I'm sure some of the variability in droop people see is due to end-user process and environment - i.e. basing method, pinning,  supplemental sculpting and reinforcement with greenstuff/apoxiesculpt, storage temperature, etc. - as some have mentioned.

 

It sounds like some of it could be variability in the creep properties of the Bonesium polymer.  I wonder how Reaper specifies the material, and whether they dictate mechanical properties of the polymer (or maybe they only specify the chemical composition?).  If some miniatures don't droop over time, it might be possible to define specs for the polymer to ensure none of ever them do.  That would be normal when designing critical seals in other industries, but it might not be practical for miniatures.  It could require engineering analysis, higher manufacturing QA/QC, costly batch testing, etc. that would drive the cost up more than people are willing to pay.

 

My guess is that trying to control this better would eat significantly into the ~$3M they're going to raise , giving us less stuff and delaying delivery further.  That would hurt their business more than not fixing the droopy models.  It's definitely possible to simulate the creep of a single dragon mini knowing the material properties and 3D geometry, but I think that analysis would cost more than the molds to make that model do.

 

Could they design these big, floppy minis to be more easily reinforced by hobbyists without spending a lot of money though?  Maybe they could design the models with joints in places where they'll need reinforcement and pre-mold starter holes for drilling/pinning on both mating parts in the right spots.

Edited by rubegon
bad writing
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16 hours ago, WhiteWulfe said:

The big problem if US and Canada are done at the same time is how do you keep things Canada friendly?  Bones IV they shipped things up to Canadian fulfillment warehouses, which were then shipped off to Canadians...  Not to mention doing it that way is more than likely going to be a LOT more expensive to Canadians, and I'm not referring to any border fees.

Well, I said “USA, (comma) and Canada and the rest of the America’s”, separating USA from Canada. Because that’s what they did last time. They palletized the Canadian orders and sent them all at once. 
 

I just think it would be a good move to separate out, by wave, anything that’s going to be palletized and sent out by freight.
 

5 hours ago, kristof65 said:

Under those circumstances, shouldn't you LIKE kobolds? Tell hubby you can't paint any more big monsters until the hordes of kobolds are done. ::D:
 

Oh, no. My hubby loves kobolds. So if he’s sending a horde of them at us you can be sure we did something to piss him off, and the kobolds are gonna murderize us. 
 

I’ll probably just paint them as some other critter.

Edited by redambrosia
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38 minutes ago, rubegon said:

Could they design these big, floppy minis to be more easily reinforced by hobbyists without spending a lot of money though?  Maybe they could design the models with joints in places where they'll need reinforcement and pre-mold starter holes for drilling/pinning on both mating parts in the right spots.

 

We know (at least from anecdotal evidence, though quite a lot of it), that different casts of the same figure will be more or less floppy. This indicates to me that mixture control isn't as rigorous as it might be. We also know that the glass transition temperature of Bones plastic is both low and variable, the former being problematic and the latter reinforcing the idea that mixture control isn't all that tight.

 

Fortunately, the plasticized PVC that regular Bones minis use is very easy to cut and drill (especially if you heat it first) and reglue, so it's definitely possible to reinforce minis that are getting the droops (Dropsy? ... Droopsy?) And it doesn't actually take all that much reinforcement to fix the problem.

 

But:

  1. You need to know how to do it, which isn't something that someone new to Bones is likely to know.
  2. You need to know that it needs to be done. Before you paint the figure.

 

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28 minutes ago, redambrosia said:

Oh, no. My hubby loves kobolds. So if he’s sending a horde of them at us you can be sure we did something to piss him off, and the kobolds are gonna murderize us. 

:wow:

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5 hours ago, TaleSpinner said:

 

It was a joke Ron made on the last Reaper Live broadcast, where he put up a Dire Cabbage as an option in a poll.

 

Reaper's random goofball jokes tend to become reality. Just look at Drow Nipple Pink....

 

6 hours ago, TaleSpinner said:

 

Yes, 2.  One is done, and one I am working on.  Can't divulge either, since they haven't been officially revealed.  That's Ron's job.

:devil: *wiggles eyebrows*

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3 hours ago, Doug Sundseth said:

 

We also know that the glass transition temperature of Bones plastic is both low and variable, the former being problematic and the latter reinforcing the idea that mixture control isn't all that tight.

 

I think Bonesium lives on the glass transition curve at room temperature.  Boiling water is definitely above Tg, and icewater is definitely below it, but it does appear to move around within that range enough that we get some droopy big models.  Glass transition is also not binary, so a bigger, flimsier model may droop while a more "stocky" one made from the same batch of Bonesium doesn't because it's shape and weight mean it sees lower stresses from its own weight.

 

Quote

And it doesn't actually take all that much reinforcement to fix the problem.

 

But:

  1. You need to know how to do it, which isn't something that someone new to Bones is likely to know.
  2. You need to know that it needs to be done. Before you paint the figure.

 

This is more a problem with big models, and most people working with those are more experienced I think.  Maybe I'm not typical, but I've been painting minis about 9 months and I'm still afraid to do the big dragon I bought in my noob excitement ("some day soon when I get a little better" - I should just do it I know ...).

 

Even for experienced hobbyists, you don't want to spend more time prepping a model than you have to I guess.  It's a hassle and not as fun, so you don't want to do it unnecessarily.  If you get it wrong, you spend a lot of time painting something that doesn't stand up properly, which sucks.

Edited by rubegon
sloppy wording
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1 minute ago, rubegon said:

Boiling water is definitely above Tg

 

I'd say "usually above", but other than that I agree.

 

NB: I've seen original bones pieces that didn't leave a fully crystalline state at 95C (because Denver) and heard the same from sea level folks. (Notably Wyrmgear's wings.)

 

The real concern I have about Droopsy* is that it's not a common thing to have to deal with in miniatures, so it's something that you find out about the hard way or by reading the right threads here or in a very few other places. It's not quite the same as "resin can shatter if you drop it" or "there's always another mold line", which are sort of the default state of miniatures painting. And "Surprise! Your miniature is very tired now, so it's sleeping." is an unpleasant thing to have happen, especially if you're a newer painter.

 

* Henceforth the official** name.

 

** "Official" in a figurative sense. :rolleyes:

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