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[Game Mastering] Keep on the Borderlands & Beyond


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23 hours ago, BlazingTornado said:

 

And I wonder if anyone here's played the Hackmaster parody, Little Keep on the Borderlands.

I own a copy of it, and had plans to run it, then the gaming group fell apart.

 

On 6/18/2019 at 5:18 PM, TheAuldGrump said:

I was just wondering, how many people started their GMing with the classic Keep on the Borderands, and how many expanded upon it?

 

>raises hand<

Yes to both.

 

On 6/18/2019 at 5:18 PM, TheAuldGrump said:

 

Then expanding to the North - for some reason I always assumed that the Keep is on a northern border, running East-West. (I honestly don't think I have ever run it as part of its native Greyhawk setting.)

It actually wasn't in Greyhawk until quite a while later. It was originally set in Mystara (the BECMI campaign setting).

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25 minutes ago, Chaoswolf said:

It actually wasn't in Greyhawk until quite a while later. It was originally set in Mystara (the BECMI campaign setting). 

If you wanna get really technical, Mystara wasn't introduced until, like, the Isle of Dread IIRC, so B2 was more "setting neutral".

It is this in its purest form, as long as your setting has the monsters and demihumans mentionned in the module, it'll likely fit.

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On 7/23/2019 at 11:09 PM, BlazingTornado said:

Oh? Did they change their policy? They never released it on PDF last I checked, specifically because Wizards didn't allow it.

I went looking.

 

WotC plans on releasing the PDF, not Goodman.

 

Eventually. <_<

 

All I can say after looking it over again is that I've lost confidence in Goodman. DCC looks decent, but how do you screw up Keep on the Borderlands?

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On 7/23/2019 at 8:05 PM, TheAuldGrump said:

I am very definitely of the sandbox and toolkit persuasion. ::):

 

I did pick up the Into the Borderlands in PDF. Mostly for the designer notes and commentary.

 

I was not impressed with the 5e conversion. (Not because it was 5e, either - Ghosts of Saltmarsh is purely for 5e, and I felt it was excellent, even if I never run it. Into the Borderlands felt... half-brocollied? No better than Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, to be sure.)

 

The Auld Grump - maybe because what I really wanted was an expansion of The Keep and of the Borderlands, not a re-imagining.

As someone who hadn't experience the original, having return to the keep be what it was was nice. I can see how someone who knew the original and wanted "more" rather than "again" would be disappointed. 

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15 hours ago, BlazingTornado said:

If you wanna get really technical, Mystara wasn't introduced until, like, the Isle of Dread IIRC, so B2 was more "setting neutral".

 

Yups. KotB predates Mystara, although it can be plugged into pretty much any D&D setting with the possible exception of Dark Sun. 

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8 hours ago, PaganMegan said:

What did they do to their site? :blink:

 

Bad Things!

 

Remember back when WOTC pulled all the old edition pdfs from Drivrthru rpg because they only wanted people to play 4th edition? I'm not sure drivethrough ever recovered (even 'though wotc finally unlocked the old files when 5th edition was coming). And I know they unlocked them instead re-releasing them because I was informed that files I'd purchased had been updated (and they hadn't been updated, they were just available again).

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2 hours ago, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Bad Things!

 

Remember back when WOTC pulled all the old edition pdfs from Drivrthru rpg because they only wanted people to play 4th edition? I'm not sure drivethrough ever recovered (even 'though wotc finally unlocked the old files when 5th edition was coming). And I know they unlocked them instead re-releasing them because I was informed that files I'd purchased had been updated (and they hadn't been updated, they were just available again).



Grrrr.

They said it was because of piracy concerns. Some said it was because they were trying to wipe out all D&D except fourth edition.

Ultimately, it meant the only way to find and obtain the old material was via eBay... or via piracy.

Yeah, that was a jolly bright move on their part.

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2 hours ago, Dr.Bedlam said:



Grrrr.

They said it was because of piracy concerns. Some said it was because they were trying to wipe out all D&D except fourth edition.

Ultimately, it meant the only way to find and obtain the old material was via eBay... or via piracy.

Yeah, that was a jolly bright move on their part.

As I think I have mentioned, WotC was suffering from all kinds of stupidity on the lead up, release, and aftermath of 4e. (And, yes, I very much do suspect that they were trying to get rid of the biggest competitor for 4e... all the previous editions of D&D.)

 

Their supposed trigger was a product that showed up pirated before it was released - the problem is that had nothing to do with DriveThru - that was an internal problem with someone in WotC itself releasing files.

 

Mind you, at that same time WotC was trying to charge the same price for PDFs as they were for hardcover copies.... Making piracy much more attractive.

 

Contrast that with Paizo charging $10 for the PDFs of their core books.

 

I didn't bother with WotC PDFs - but I own both hardcopy and PDF of the main Pathfinder books. (And almost all available free from their SRD in any event. If I want the rules, I don't need to pirate - I can get them for free legitimately. And have - I use the Masterwork Tools app all the time.)

 

The Auld Grump - the moral of this story? Never make it hard for people to give you their money.

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5 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

As I think I have mentioned, WotC was suffering from all kinds of stupidity on the lead up, release, and aftermath of 4e. (And, yes, I very much do suspect that they were trying to get rid of the biggest competitor for 4e... all the previous editions of D&D.)

 

Fortunately I'd managed to snag a fair few of the old Ravenloft pdfs before they got pulled. Now that they're available again I can grab the rest "whenever I want".

 

Ironically their culling of the older editions probably increased the popularity of Pathfinder as a viable alternative to the MMO without the computer that was 4th edition.

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8 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

Never make it hard for people to give you their money.

 

That should be graven in stone somewhere.

 

3 hours ago, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Ironically their culling of the older editions probably increased the popularity of Pathfinder as a viable alternative to the MMO without the computer that was 4th edition.

 

I personally agree. Market manipulation is a tricky thing, no matter WHO you are, how BIG you are, or what the PRODUCT is. The Coca-Cola people changed the formula of Coke, removed the old formula from the market, and said, "This is Coke now. Deal with it."

They thought that the market had no choice but to switch over to the new product. They were quite wrong. Ultimately, the consumer has the power, and will hit back if you try to force them to love the new product.

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18 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

 

That should be graven in stone somewhere.

 

 

I personally agree. Market manipulation is a tricky thing, no matter WHO you are, how BIG you are, or what the PRODUCT is. The Coca-Cola people changed the formula of Coke, removed the old formula from the market, and said, "This is Coke now. Deal with it."

They thought that the market had no choice but to switch over to the new product. They were quite wrong. Ultimately, the consumer has the power, and will hit back if you try to force them to love the new product.

At BAM one of the problems were customers that LIKED 4e,  but were serving as bad will ambassadors. They were HORRIBLE, and made everyone else not want to even try 4e.

 

And those bad will ambassadors were taking their cues from Wizards. Wizards spent a lot of time denigrating the older versions of the game. "You know this game you love? It SUCKS! Buy this new one instead!"

 

Saying your game is good is one thing, trying to say that EVERYONE ELSE'S games are bad is quite another. Trying to say that the previous editon, loved by millions, was bad was just about as dumb as a bag of rocks.

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3 hours ago, Balgin Stondraeg said:

 

Fortunately I'd managed to snag a fair few of the old Ravenloft pdfs before they got pulled. Now that they're available again I can grab the rest "whenever I want".

 

Ironically their culling of the older editions probably increased the popularity of Pathfinder as a viable alternative to the MMO without the computer that was 4th edition.

Grump went kind of berserk buying Eberron PDFs.

 

I didn't even know until he sent me to Driv Thru to pick up what I needed for my game.

 

Only to get page after page of "You Already Own This", which would have been nice to know.

 

I  was surprised to learn that Keep was in print for less than ten years. I thought it had been in print forever.

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