Jump to content

Time of Legends: Joan of Arc 1.5


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 14
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

well this has been hit with an ip dispute from the games writer



Mythic's version


Mythic Games, Inc.Creator
January 3, 2020

Dear backers,

As you may have noticed, our Kickstarter page for Time of Legends: Joan of Arc 1.5 has been “frozen” since December 16, 2019. We did everything we could to try and resolve this problem amicably before it went public, but unfortunately, we couldn’t do it despite all our efforts.

Before going any further, it should be noted that we are very confident in the upcoming resolution of this issue, since we are advised by a very good lawyer, who is specializing in this field and has worked with the biggest game publishers. We have also discussed with fellow publishers, who have given us good advice and also share the same confidence with us.

A summary of the problem

Pascal Bernard is suing Mythic Games for non-payment of part of his royalties, and therefore requests the cancellation of the contract which binds us to him. Mythic Games, from their part, are simply asking Pascal Bernard to establish an invoice of the right amount to pay him the balance of what they owe him.

According to the contract, it was agreed that Pascal Bernard would receive the balance of his remuneration after the final delivery of the game. The contract specifies that Pascal Bernard will receive a percentage of the Net Turnover Excluding Tax. When the game was delivered at the end of the summer, Pascal Bernard sent us an incorrect invoice based on the amount displayed by Game on Tabletop to which he applied this percentage directly. We dispute the basis of his calculation since the percentage was not applied to the Net Turnover Excluding Tax.

To give you a simple example, the shipping costs paid by the backers shouldn’t be part of a turnover on which Pascal Bernard can ask for royalties, it is the same for taxes or customs fees, etc.

How should we calculate the remuneration base?

One of Pascal Bernard's challenges concerns the remuneration base.

The contract mentions that this remuneration relates to the net turnover excluding taxes (cf. article 10 of the contract) for “the work”. Let’s go back to the definition of Net Turnover Excluding Tax:

- Net: means that fees and royalties must be withdrawn. These as an example are the amounts collected by Kickstarter and Game On Tabletop.

- Turnover: this is the amount of total sales made and actually collected by Mythic Games. This amount is lower than the amount displayed on Kickstarter because some transactions are not successful (expired credit cards, unfunded bank accounts, refund requests ...).

- Excluding Tax: means taxes must be excluded. Therefore, VAT and other comparable taxes must be withdrawn.

Other elements to take into account:

- The card sleeves are not branded « Time of Legends: Joan of Arc », these are generic game accessories that we sold as intermediaries during the Pledge Manager, they therefore do not have to be included in the calculation of net sales.

- Mythic Games sold the Time of Legends: Joan of Arc role-playing game during the same Kickstarter as the board game but on behalf of another publisher. According to the agreement with the role playing game publisher, Mythic Games' remuneration for the role-playing game is a percentage of the margin achieved on this game. Mythic Games therefore collected a certain amount for the role-playing publisher during the Kickstarter of the board game, but the final sum that Mythic Games actually cashed for this role-playing game, the one that counts for the base calculation on which the royalty percentage should apply, is much lower.

The position of Mythic Games

We work with many authors who are all happy to work with us. We have always paid them, on the games that we published and delivered, on those being delivered and even on the games in preparation for this year. We have always paid the agreed amounts and had good relations with all our service providers and partners.

In this case, we are sticking to the contract which binds us, contract whose drafting was proposed by Pascal Bernard himself and which should be the sole point of reference. We do not ask Pascal Bernard for lateness penalties. We are ready to pay him the balance immediately. We provided him with all the supporting documents. We agree to pay him on the reprint 1.5 version upon delivery under the same conditions, the same percentage of the Net Turnover Excluding Tax. We therefore request that Pascal Bernard abandons his prosecution once he has been paid. We are open to discussion and possibly to a mediation.

How does this affect you

Please note that you are not affected in any way. It is important to know that Kickstarter will not ask us for a refund and will not prevent us from delivering the game. In the meantime, we continue to work on Time of Legends: Joan of Arc, just as initially planned. We will continue to send you revised scenarios and details on the progress of the project. Overall we will deliver our current games as planned, the next on the list being Reichbusters, which will be on the boat before the Chinese New Year, January 21. The Joan of Arc reprint is well on track and we aim to deliver it as planned in October.

We would like to thank you all for your trust and the love that you have shown for this project. We are truly blessed to have supportive backers like you to our journey in this industry. From our part we commit ourselves to providing you with the best games made that will give you a mythic experience.






Right of reply from Pascal BERNARD, author of the game Time of Legends: Joan of Arc.

Dear all,

As everyone knows by now, I am going through a legal dispute with Mythic Games, publisher of the game Time of Legends: Joan of Arc.

Mythic Games has chosen to make this conflict public and to recount the events in an untruthful and outrageous manner, seeking to discredit and tarnish my reputation as an author.

I therefore have no choice but to respond in order to restore the truth, that is far more prosaic and simple than they claim.

Who is Mythic Games?

Mythic Games is a company from Luxembourg, which I have never signed any contract with. In 2016, this company acquired the French company Play & Win, then co-owned by Benoit Vogt (co-owner with Pascal Vesperini, alias Léonidas Vesperini, of the company Mythic Games) and Piotr Borowski, manager of the company Sans Détour (http://opengazettes.com/gazette_notices/395547292).

It is with the company Play & Win that I have signed. No other.

Where does our contract come from?

Mythic Games, which has not even signed my contract, claims that it was me who drew up this document. That is not true.

It was provided to me by Play & Win.

Even if I had drawn up this contract, it is not clear, moreover, what difference it would make regarding its performance.

Non-payment of royalties

Thanks to the 10,000 players who pledged, the game raised over $4 million, which were paid to Mythic Games between 2017 and 2018.

According to our contract, I should have received 6% of the net sales revenue.

It is now January 2020 and neither Mythic Games nor Play & Win has paid these royalties to me (except a small advance).

While we are going through a dispute over this clause, Mythic Games finally acknowledged that it owed me important royalties.

I ignore whether they cannot or do not want to pay those royalties to me. The fact is that they have not paid them.

The fact is also that despite their obligations, they still have not provided me with the supporting documents for the "net turnover" collected, or for the payment of the various taxes (VAT for example).

Infringing " 1.5 version ".

By completely omitting the " 1.5 version " dispute, Mythic Games wants you to believe that our conflict only involves my royalties payment. This is not true.

What actually triggered our dispute was the launch, without my agreement, without prior consultation and even without giving me any information, of a Kickstarter and a Late Pledge for a new version of Joan of Arc, that Mythic Games presented under the name "Time of Legends: Joan of Arc 1.5".

I naturally alerted Kickstarter on the infringing nature of this campaign.

This brutal launch, in violation of my rights, while I still have not been paid for the first campaign, obviously makes me fear the worst: that Mythic Games will deliver an altered or botched version, or even never deliver this version, and that they will use the collected funds to pay-off possible losses.

In reality, I am only defending the outcome of years of hard work, efforts and of historical research conducted more than 20 years ago, before the release of my first game Montjoie!

I also wish to protect the projects and extensions of Joan of Arc that I am working on, that this so-called " 1.5 version " seriously jeopardizes.

My own rights set aside, what is actually at stake is the future of the license and the best interest of the many pledgers and players.

I take this opportunity to thank my professional friends, as well as the communities of players and pledgers. Many of you have shown me your comforting support, which is incredibly heartwarming.

Pascal Bernard, author of Time of Legends: Joan of Arc

it doesn't really seem as if this will effect delivery of the game but it's certainly burnt bridges between mythic and the original designer


it's also impossible to figure out the rights and wrongs without knowing what was in Bernard's contract with P&W (was there any mention of special things to be done if the company was sold, did the IP revert to him, does he retain any degree of ownership that would prevent them doing a 1.5 without him), what happened to P&W after being bought (was it absorbed into mythic or does it remain as a company owned by them even in name only), and what the net profits on JoA were (and we all know that net profits can be almost nothing even on a huge project... I think I remember reaper saying Bones 1 only 'made' $15,000, so it's not impossible that Bernard didn't even earn out the advance.... always try for cut of the gross even if it's a lot smaller piece of the pie, it's a lot harder to legally make gross numbers vanish)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Grefven said:

"Piotr Borowski, manager of the company Sans Détour"


Yepp. This says it all.


I hope Kickstarter takes back control over their platform, and turning it back to what i was used to be, so we could get rid of all these scammers that plague it.


The way I read it he was one of the owners of  Play & Win, the company Pascal Bernard originally had the contract with, that got bought out by Mythic. I don't think he had any part in Mythic.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, that is how I read it as well, but there are still ways in which Piotr Borowski might be responsible for this mess.  The two parties involved in this contract can't agree on what the terms mean- and significantly neither party wrote the contract.

From everything we've seen of Piotr, he isn't one to shirk at an opportunity to take advantage of someone, and we also know that he doesn't always uphold his contracts and pay royalties.  What kind of contract might someone like that be ok with signing?

If the contract is illegal, unfair or unclear, then that is the fault of Play & Win under the leadership of Piotr Borowski.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/22/2020 at 6:35 PM, Darsc Zacal said:


Oh. You want this dragon.


Man, I'm not trying to dis Reaper but that Dragon from the board game is highly detailed in comparisons.  Mind you this might've changed with the latest Bones updates but damn that's solid.  LIke one of Todd's old dragons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I little bit from Mythic:



Time of Legends: Joan of Arc has been a project that has had its ups and downs. This is our first project as a solo publisher, and it's a project we've always held dear and that we will continue to support until what we deliver is up to the standards that it deserves to be.


It's a game that we had plans for, and were hoping to be one of our cradles in our publishing endeavours. Therefore, it is with regret that we must announce that Time of Legends: Joan of Arc is no longer a Mythic Games license. The rights to this game have been returned to the author Pascal Bernard. He now owns all the rights to the game's mechanics and title, and we have licensed him to use the game's artwork and miniatures, which means that future developments of Time of Legends: Joan of Arc are now in his hands. This Kickstarter and Pledge Manager were the last opportunities you had to get the game as a Mythic Games published product, and we will not have any copies for sale on our e-shop, nor at conventions.


We would like to thank each and every one of you for your support throughout this huge project. Without you, we would not be the publisher we are today and we are immensely grateful. We also want to make it clear that although we no longer own the rights to this game, we will continue to provide after-sales service until it is fully delivered.


We'll be back soon with a new and exciting project that will take you back to the Hundred Years’ War with its myths, iconic characters and fantastic monsters, in the great tradition of the games we publish and you love. You'll once again have the pleasure of battling in epic battles where you can bask in the glory reserved to the champion who has led his faction to victory. We won't reveal more for now, but you should know that our teams are already hard at work, ready to throw themselves into this new editorial adventure.


  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Create New...