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Reaper Bones 5: Enthusiasm and Commentary thread


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I'm torn ... of course I do not like paying more than I absolutely must. But I saw that coming. I have asked during the campaign and asked later and they always evaded answering (because they were probably unable to answer it). So I assumed the worst.

Two points:

- communications were NOT good (this update with the EU information came too late, much too late ... after Reaper really ignoring the topic - or at least they did not show any interest - and that is what makes me think about backing Reaper again

- I paid a LOT less for shipping this time so I guess money-wise, I'll end up paying the same amount when VAT and duties are said and done ... seems like part of the money for those taxes used to be included in shipping.

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4 hours ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

I seem to recall Ed mentioning on one of the Twitch live streams that the EU attempt failed because of regulations, fees and requirements of filing for the necessary permits to import (or something along those lines).  It would not have been approved/ in place before it was time to deliver.  It may have been in the state of Reaper post RVE stream or some such.

 

4 hours ago, Nunae said:

Thank you for this information. Having critical information like this in a stream, that happens at the middle of the night for the people concerned and not repeat it in an official update is a mistake. 

 

I tried to keep up with streams for some time, but they're too many these days and my life has changed so I can't be up that late anymore. Today's update should have been called "EU/UK shipping information" and should have contained:

- the info that everything is going to get shipped from the UK

- UK is getting the containers directly from China this time (that's good! I think)

- Are there even containers on their way/being planned for the UK right now? Will they be shipped from China when the US has all their stuff?

- What happend to the 'alternate hub'

- Ideally also information on what shipping partner they're going to use and what the country of origin will be on the paperwork (China or UK?) These things can make quite an impact on the fees, as I'd like to make sure that no parcel carrier will try and cash in absurd service fees for prepaying my duty fees. You can usually opt out of that and pick the package up yourself. 

 

This isn't some small indie company with three people in a trenchcoat fulfilling a KS with 20 miniatures total. This EU update affects over 2500 backers, and a lot of them might not have backed international KSs before/might not have imported orders of this magnitude from outside the EU. Giving us more than 2 sentences in some side paragraphe would go a long way to feeling more respected as backers and more understanding towards the company. 

 

^^Nunae hit this one. Important information needs to be in more than just a Twitch stream. I don't watch any of those. Important info should be in regular newsletters, easily referenced. Reaper has made some improvements on communication, and then failed in others. If people want information that they don't have or don't know, I actually appreciate a simple "We've gotten asked X, but we do not have an answer because of Y problem". Keep things transparent, and let the people worrying know they're heard. If you don't know, okay, but keeping everyone in the dark for a long time sucks.

 

4 hours ago, Inarah said:

 

They chose the UK because the language barrier on the mainland was seen as a problem for a company with English speaking employees.  Someone from Reaper relocated his family for this. There were going to be enough problems without having to translate languages.   I do know that many europeans speak English, but it is better to not have to run a business in an environment where you don't have a good understanding of the language.

 

2 hours ago, Fnordlover said:

Based on living in the US, I'd guess that more Europeans speak English fluently than Americans. 

 

Reaper has been dealing with China for Bones, and Europeans are pretty fluent in English overall. After grading papers written by people from around the world, the ESL folks from Europe probably have the most consistent English. Errors might be present but they are simple grammatical ones (like adjective-noun order). Native English speakers get weird with errors. I do suspect some parts of Europe are more welcoming to only-English speakers than others, as far as making new friends on a permanent basis goes. I still wouldn't have put it as a barrier for Reaper. Business problems making it difficult, or favoring the UK... that I'd believe more.

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On 12/17/2020 at 12:43 PM, ksbsnowowl said:

I agree that Reaper didn’t do a good job of communicating this in Kickstarter updates. I’m pretty sure many people mentioned this to Reaper several times in this thread (their over-heavy reliance on Twitch, and failing to include those important tidbits in KS communications). So, yeah, some of the griping is a bit justified. But, Reaper did clearly state it in the Dec 4th update (though without emphasizing it adequately). Rather short notice, as far as official KS communication, though. 


Some things never change, I guess?

 

27 minutes ago, Cyradis said:

 

 

^^Nunae hit this one. Important information needs to be in more than just a Twitch stream. I don't watch any of those. Important info should be in regular newsletters, easily referenced. Reaper has made some improvements on communication, and then failed in others. If people want information that they don't have or don't know, I actually appreciate a simple "We've gotten asked X, but we do not have an answer because of Y problem". Keep things transparent, and let the people worrying know they're heard. If you don't know, okay, but keeping everyone in the dark for a long time sucks.

 

Edited by ksbsnowowl
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I don't like kicking a dead horse...BUT...Yah I am kicking that dead horse:)

 

I think everyone has been mentioning the need for a dedicated PR guy (since post Bone THREE???) to handle JUST this, it is too important to be Ron or Jon wearing other hats AND try to be PR guys. Come on, you are a big enough company now, you need a PR guy.  Dragon size ,Frost giant umm size, and UK/Brexit issues could have been resolved better if someone just did PR. Especially now with all their communication streams, PVE and other events, you guys are killing poor Jon.

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Brexit did not fall from the sky, it was well known, even at the time this KS was launched. I think that in more than a year before it took place, Reaper could have resolved the problem, so the story of the problems about the papers and permissions from EU sound like a excuse to me.


Simply I feel I was tricked in buy more, just 'cause they said that an EU hub was something they were working on, or at least this is what I was reading here on the forum.


I can't stay awake till 3 am just 'cause Reaper prefer to give news through Twitch instead of use KS or the forum.

 

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sorry for everyone that, it appears if im reading it right, costs are going to up and potentially drastically for some countries.

 

im still hoping for a bones 6 after this, so hopefully they sort out communications, maybe arrange for better shipping discounts, etc...

 

regards


Sanjay

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Okay, I might be seeing this wrong, and I'm definitely not an expert on customs rules in the EU, but ... are people thinking they're paying double import taxes?

 

For UK backers, they've already paid VAT through the KS. Backers in the UK specifically were the only backers who did that. Other European backers(including EU backers) did not pay VAT through the KS, and will pay it as the normal import tax rules of their countries state, when they receive their packages. If the hub had been in Germany, it wouldn't really change anything - you'd still have to pay the VAT as it got into Germany from China, which would be the same VAT as if UK hadn't done the Brexit thing.

 

European, non UK orders are going into the UK with what is generally referred to as "Temporary Admission" or "Temporary Import", which means the UK doesn't tax that because they're just a temporary storage location. (This is, of course, an assumption. But it is also a very good assumption, as it is very much standard practise.)

TL;DR: Since only actual UK backers paid VAT during the KS, you'd still have to pay VAT as you received yours if you weren't in the UK, because the shipping is coming from outside the EU anyway. Also, you're not paying double VAT due to Temporary Admission.

 

Again, I'm no expert. So if I'm wrong, someone tell me. :)
The best thing would get Jon or someone to confirm this, of course. 

 

That all said, Reaper still really needs to work on their delivery of important news. I was, myself, under the impression that the German hub would be a thing. But I also thought it was mainly to avoid delays and other non tax related import problems caused by Brexit. When you say, "yeah, that's something we're working on", the assumption is that that's what's going to happen. If that changes, then you need to let people know in the manner that reaches most of those affected. And that is definitely not the Twitch streams, especially when it mainly concerns people whom would have to stay up hours past midnight to see the stream. Or later watch through a full hour of video content to find a small scrap of information they wouldn't even know was there.

Edit: LOL, I wrote "export" instead of "expert"! xD

Edited by Guyra
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The problem is not VAT.

The problem is we have to pay import fees, the customs, the re-shipping after that, and so on. 

VAT was expected, the rest no. There is a big difference between 20/25% and 40/50%. 

In my case I'll end paying 250€ instead of 100€...

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After sleeping over it, I'm mostly fine since, yeah, it was to be expected that we had to pay  VAT at some point and, other than with Bones IV, we didn't do so already in the pledgemanager (and pledgemanager is closed now, so it was unrealistic that they'd still charge us there and prepay for us). 

 

But besides VAT, which we in Germany at least have to pay for rather small orders as well, there are import duties to pay, and people might have tried to stay under that threshold to avoid those fees. Since my order is above 150 Euros (and I guess that's true for a lot of people) it's gonna be 19% VAT + x% depending on what category of items the agent interprets Bones being. The percentage might vary greatly based on them categorizing the items.

Also, those agents might get a bit difficult if you tell them that that giant box of plastic is indeed for your personal use, not commercial. For the uninitiated it might be hard to understand that I, an adult person, need so many plastic toys. 

Apparently some person in the comment also has had a problem with Reaper not declaring the shipping costs on the paperwork, which meant the agency assumed a (way higher) shipping cost and calculated fees based on that. And on the topic of shipping: what carrier our Bones will be given to might also be important (and we need information on that beforehand!) since some carriers charge absurd service fees at the door for the "service" of prepaying your taxes and then make you pay cash (without telling you beforehand how much cash you'll need to have at home) or give it to their package shop anyway. You can try and opt out of those services though, which some people might want to do. 

 

Personally I don't think I'd have changed my purchasing decisions, but for some other people this information might have influenced them to stay under certain totals. Also, prepaying fees and then just getting your package without wondering on what amount the post man will want is just way more comfortable. A lot of bigger kickstarters handle this better these days. 

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43 minutes ago, Cicciopiu said:

The problem is not VAT.

The problem is we have to pay import fees, the customs, the re-shipping after that, and so on. 

VAT was expected, the rest no. There is a big difference between 20/25% and 40/50%. 

In my case I'll end paying 250€ instead of 100€...

 

I'm not quite sure I follow. You've paid for shipping already during the KS. That is the shipping from UK to where you live. Is there another shipping fee that you need to pay for?

Import fees usually is paid for together with the VAT, both of which are paid to the customs office, at least that's what I'm used to. Why would you not have paid the import fees if it was not sent from the UK(or Brexit hadn't happened)?
Since Reaper didn't collect VAT during KS from you(thereby not handling the import), wouldn't you have had to pay the import fee as well anyway?
And where do you get the 40/50% from?

Honestly just trying to understand here, as this just doesn't add up with the potentially lacking information I have. :)

Edited by Guyra
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14 hours ago, Inarah said:

 

I agree with you, but it was not my decision to make.  I have been to the Netherlands a few times and it was very nice to visit, but still a little uncomfortable not knowing the language well. 

 

 

 Trust me, most of us don't care that we need to speak English instead of you speaking Dutch.

Of course when you want to live here, then we like you to slowly learn the language, but the majority doesn't mind switching to English every now and then.

Our youth is using more and more English terms and proverbs mixed in our native language nowadays.

No problems there.

16 minutes ago, Guyra said:

 

I'm not quite sure I follow. You've paid for shipping already during the KS. That is the shipping from UK to where you live. Is there another shipping fee that you need to pay for?

Import fees usually is paid for together with the VAT, both of which are paid to the customs office, at least that's what I'm used to. Why would you not have paid the import fees if it was not sent from the UK(or Brexit hadn't happened)?
Since Reaper didn't collect VAT during KS from you(thereby not handling the import), wouldn't you have had to pay the import fee as well anyway?
And where do you get the 40/50% from?

Honestly just trying to understand here, as this just doesn't add up with the potentially lacking information I have. :)

 

We do not live in the UK.

So we pay for the extra shipping to our EU countries and the customs that will apply from receiving a shipment from the UK.

 

Also, before Brexit, the UK was part of the EU meaning we didn't need to pay VAT from a shipment from the UK.

We pay VAT and customs  for the part of the shipment from the USA to the EU.

Now we will also pay customs for the second part of that journey from the UK to the EU.

Edited by Glitterwolf
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9 minutes ago, Glitterwolf said:

We do not live in the UK.

So we pay for the extra shipping to our EU countries and the customs that will apply from receiving a shipment from the UK.

 

But that shipping is already paid for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the shipping fee you paid in the Pledge Manger.

 

And the customs + VAT you'd also have to pay for anyway, because it's not manufactured in the UK, but China. Brexit or no Brexit, you'd have to pay for it, because Reaper's not covering that cost for you. Just like they didn't cover those costs for the people in the UK(whom had the option of paying VAT up front.)

If you were paying for shipping to the UK, and VAT + customs into the UK, and then from there to your own country, I'd have understood this. But you don't pay for that. You only pay for importing(technically from China) into your own country, and have already paid the shipping.

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7 minutes ago, Guyra said:

 

But that shipping is already paid for. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the shipping fee you paid in the Pledge Manger.

 

And the customs + VAT you'd also have to pay for anyway, because it's not manufactured in the UK, but China. Brexit or no Brexit, you'd have to pay for it, because Reaper's not covering that cost for you. Just like they didn't cover those costs for the people in the UK(whom had the option of paying VAT up front.)

 

Old situation

I buy from USA, Delivered to EU.

Shipping and Customs applied.

 

New situation

I buy from USA Delivered to UK

Shipping and customs applied.

 

Since Brexit.

Pay extra for new custom fees.

 

To be clear...we pay customs fees twice now.

It would actually have been cheaper if they just send it from the USA  directly to us like the first Bones Kickstarters.

 

 

It sounds strange and unbelievable, but that;s why we have been asking over and over again what Reaper's plan was concerning Brexit.

It really means we will pay more.

So this is my last Bones KS, it just isn't worth it anymore.

Sorry to say.

 

Should I be wrong and be happily surprised when my order arrives, I'll be the first to let you all know.

Mind you, I don't mean to whine, it's just a fact that makes it less worthwile for Europeans now.

To quote Metallica

Sad but True.

Edited by Glitterwolf
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14 minutes ago, Glitterwolf said:

 

Old situation

I buy from USA, Delivered to EU.

Shipping and Customs applied.

 

New situation

I buy from USA Delivered to UK

Shipping and customs applied.

 

Since Brexit.

Pay extra for new custom fees.

 

To be clear...we pay customs fees twice now.

It would actually have been cheaper if they just send it from the USA  directly to us like the first Bones Kickstarters.

 

 

It sounds strange and unbelievable, but that;s why we have been asking over and over again what Reaper's plan was concerning Brexit.

It really means we will pay more.

So this is my last Bones KS, it just isn't worth it anymore.

Sorry to say.

 

Should I be wrong and be happily surprised when my order arrives, I'll be the first to let you all know.

Mind you, I don't mean to whine, it's just a fact that makes it less worthwile for Europeans now.

To quote Metallica

Sad but True.

 

Thank you for having that make a little more sense to me. Why do you pay customs fees twice, though? Because you're not paying anything for it going into the UK, due to Temporary Admission. (Unless Reaper's not doing Temporary Admission, which would be incredibly weird and highly unlikely.)

Edited by Guyra
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I also assume temporary admission (my fear about paying VAT twice was if we were to pay VAT in the PM and then still get stuff shipped through the UK, which hasn't happend). But even with that, these are the two options in comparison:

 

A) The seller charges VAT/fees upfront and solves the import paperwork for you. We pay something like 20% (Bones IV rate) on top of the usual item prices, but customs will let our packages slide right trough.

B) We handle fees on our own. That's the gamble part that highly depends on your country. In Germany, I'll pay 19% taxes for any item I buy + x% for the type of item (like clothes, toys, alcohol, ...) + y% for country of origin of such items + handling fees + service fees to the carrier. I say gamble bc the customs agent might decide that my Reaper Bones are toys (4,5%) or something else with a higher cost associated. I actually had this discussion with a customs agent when I picked up my Darkswords Kickstarter. And that assumes that they're fine with the declared value and this being a "private" order (in some cases the huge boxes and hundreds of plastic figures might lead to questions). Some fees are waived depending on country on smaller orders, so people might have ordered less to keep under those values.

Added to those fees the customs agencies want (and would have gotten in any case!) most carriers also charge you extra these days for dealing with customs. This might be a flat rate (like 6 Euro) or also percentage based. Problem with this is, the moment the carrier is at your door it's too late to say "I don't want this service! I'd prefer to pick up my package myself!" so you have to pre-register with each carrier (at least in Germany) for them to leave the package at the customs office and not give you this "service". 

 

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