Cav rules for buildings

[Froggy the Great]

These were also posted on the Mil-net forums.

 

Here are some ideas for buildings. Hopefully this will be developed and tested enough to go to the CAVHQ Proving Grounds.

 

These are designed to be used with the buildings whose roofs haeve rubble glued underneath. When the building is destroyed, replace the building with the rubbled underside of the roof.

 

Normal Buildings: 1DT per floor, 1 ARM, don't know about DCA.

Reinforced buildings: 2DT per floor, or three DT per two floors.

Bunkers: 3DT per floor.

 

Infantry are normally the only ones that can enter buildings. It takes 1" of movement to go up a floor. Place them on top of the building to indicate their position on the floor, and then a die by them to indicate which floor they're on.

 

In a normal building, Infantry get one point of cover for being next to the wall inside a building, and one point per inch in from the edge they are. Reinforced buildings provide 2 cover at the edge, and one per inch in. Bunkers are 3 at the edge, 1 more per inch in. Infantry cannot see outside or be seen if they are not at the edge. Indirect fire may not be fired from inside the building, but may be fired from the roof. Infantry on top of the building are considered out in the open, and LOS must be determined by eyeballing between models.

 

To shoot at Regular buildings, designate a point on the building and roll for TL and effect as normal. If there are infantry in the building, they recieve the same damage as the building, minus one per inch away from the edge they are. If the building is hit by indirect fire, infantry is damaged same as the building, minus one per inch vertically, and one per inch horizontally from the edge of the AOE of the weapon. Most buildings larger than a house are hard targets.

For Reinforced buildings, the damage is reduced by one for every 3/4 inch or portion thereof. For bunkers, it is reduced by 2 per inch.

 

When a building runs out of damage tracks, it is destroyed. Infantry inside the building roll Pilot+ARM as normal, versus D10+(building's number of floors)+(how high up they were in the building) Assuming the infantry survives, they are placed outside the edge of the rubble, having moved the shortest distance to get there.

 

Models next to the collapsing building must roll Pilot+ARM versus D10+(number of floors)-(2x number of inches from the building), as the rubble spreads out.

 

Rubble is considered Rough Terrain, and provides one point of cover per two inches or fraction thereof that the model is within it.

 

There you go. Rip it apart and make it better.

[Leech]

Okay, firstly I'd say that the proximity to walls wouldn't have much of an effect... you've already said that there's no LoS through the walls so I don't personally see a point.

 

I personally would say that unless they're at the edges (by the windows etc) then there's no LoS and so cannot be hit. The only time they'd take damage is from the building collapsing, and perhaps IF since being inside is the only cover modifier allowed for IF.

 

Other than that, it sounds very good indeed. I'd not force the infantry out of the building when it collapses (assuming they survived) unless it's 3 floors or more tall since falling a single storey shouldn't have too much of an effect and they're gonna be in the rubble. In fact, I'd probably say this for larger buildings as well, but roll scatter for where the rubble ends up (buildings rarley collapse straight down, apparently).

 

And I'd have thought all buildings were hard targets, but then again I've never shot at a building with anything smaller than a 4.5" gun so I'd not know the effect of small arms :o)

[Froggy the Great]

Okay, firstly I'd say that the proximity to walls wouldn't have much of an effect... you've already said that there's no LoS through the walls so I don't personally see a point.

Hmm.  You're right.

 

I personally would say that unless they're at the edges (by the windows etc) then there's no LoS and so cannot be hit. The only time they'd take damage is from the building collapsing, and perhaps IF since being inside is the only cover modifier allowed for IF.

 

Okay, perhaps when they're inside the building, they're not a legal target for IF, since the building will get hit first.

 

Other than that, it sounds very good indeed. I'd not force the infantry out of the building when it collapses (assuming they survived) unless it's 3 floors or more tall since falling a single storey shouldn't have too much of an effect and they're gonna be in the rubble. In fact, I'd probably say this for larger buildings as well, but roll scatter for where the rubble ends up (buildings rarely collapse straight down, apparently).

Good idea, but I think that it would make it too complicated.

 

And I'd have thought all buildings were hard targets, but then again I've never shot at a building with anything smaller than a 4.5" gun so I'd not know the effect of small arms :o)

 

Hmm.  Also right.  I keep forgetting that even soft-target weapons are fairly huge.  The reason I made small buildings soft targets is because of the flamer the Puma might possibly shoot at it.

[Leech]

Yeah, the building will get hit with the IF, but any infantry would take splash damage, if not even hit themselves. Although I might be tempted to allow the inverse as well - the infantry take the hit and the building takes splash damage. This is where the cover rules for IF aren't especially clear...

 

I personally don't see how rolling a scatter dice to determine where the infanty end up after the building has collapsed makes it all that complicated. Just roll for a scatter dice (like for IF scatter) and then move them 1" for every 5 floors they were up - should work nicely and simulate collapsing nicely. I think :o)

 

My point exactly, I'd not expect even an M2 to do much to a building, although I know for certain that a 4.5" gun will smack a house away and a 155mm will weaken it considerably.

 

And I've just found that my college sells foamboard, so I should be able to knock some buildings up myself :o)

[SOldcorn]

Building are quite hard to knock down, look at footage from the second world war where explosive weapons were being used. They would put holes in buildings but not destroy them very easily. Hard target weapons like gauss cannons etc are going to put small holes in walls as they go straight through one wall and out the other side. I would make buildings soft targets and also limit how much damage can be done by one shot (ie beat the armour roll and no matter how much by you only do 1 point of damage.) if using direct fire weapons.

 

Also I would up the ARM rating for buildings as they get tougher, having looked at actual WW2 bunkers that have taken direct hits from 12" guns and the only damage is a small chunk missing (about the size of two fists).

 

Can you TL a building ? If you can again this will allow shots to rip buildings apart unless use go for my first point.

 

What form of cover would you give the rubble remains of the building, because lets face it infantry thrive in ruins.

[Froggy the Great]

Suggested changes:

-Paragraph 6, remove the progressively greater cover, since it is rendered moot by the lack of LOS if the infantry is not at the edge.

 

-Infantry inside the building cannot be targeted by IF, though if they are in the sphere of the AOE, they can get hit, per the rules in paragraph 7.

 

-Buildings can be Target-Locked as normal.  If the building has no ECM, it is automatically targetlocked.

 

-Regular buildings are ARM 2, Reinforced are ARM 3, Bunkers are ARM 4.

 

-Regular buildings can take a max of 3 damage a round, Reinforced 2, Bunkers 1, except in the case of a critical event, in which case all "Dead CAV" results translate to a rubbled building.

 

-Rubble is considered Lvl 1 Rough Terrain, and provides the same cover as Light Woods, i.e. one point per inch, 3 or more means no LOS.

 

-Infantry in a building can shoot at other infantry in the same building.  Each inch of intervening space is one point of cover on the same floor, 2 inches of cover if on different floors.  3 or more and no LOS.

[Chrome]

Anything can be TL'ed and without an ECM system, they can't prevent it.  So TL'ing a building should be automatic.

 

And I'd have thought all buildings were hard targets,

Per the rules, "Hard targets include ... bunkers, reinforced buildings and structures.  Soft targets include ... standard buildings and structures."  Pg 15 rules pdf

[sparky]

I like where this is going. Lots of thinking going on here.

 

1) I think I would make buildings soft targets because of the target lock issue. I don't see getting a target lock a problem, buildings are large immobile objects, infact, to save time I would make that automatic.  My only worry would be like a Knight with a flamer being able to drop a concrete building in a single turn.

 

2) I think I would allow buildings to be close assulted, and yes I would want them to have a DCA so they are not total destroyed in a single phase. IE give them a negitive DCA as most CAV's have a negitive ACA.

 

3) Infantry and rubble, definately! I would give them at least a dug in bounus (hull down) and might even consider double that. However this also brings up the question of can an infantry unit just dig defenses to achive the same armor bonous.

 

4) I don't think I would worry about the scatter of a building in reference to terrain becoming rough. I would already make urban areas rough terrain as the many obsticles within  the canyons that are city streets.

[Froggy the Great]

1) I think I would make buildings soft targets because of the target lock issue. I don't see getting a target lock a problem, buildings are large immobile objects, infact, to save time I would make that automatic.  My only worry would be like a Knight with a flamer being able to drop a concrete building in a single turn.

It's already covered in the rules, as per Chrome's quote above.  That's why I'm no longer addressing it in these rules.

 

2) I think I would allow buildings to be close assulted, and yes I would want them to have a DCA so they are not total destroyed in a single phase. IE give them a negitive DCA as most CAV's have a negitive ACA.

 

I agree, but something about a superheavy CAV CAing a building and being forced back a few inches just rings really silly to me.

 

3) Infantry and rubble, definately! I would give them at least a dug in bounus (hull down) and might even consider double that. However this also brings up the question of can an infantry unit just dig defenses to achive the same armor bonous.

I'd say Infantry's defenses in the open already account for that sort of digging.  I think my addendum covers rubble sufficiently.

 

4) I don't think I would worry about the scatter of a building in reference to terrain becoming rough. I would already make urban areas rough terrain as the many obsticles within  the canyons that are city streets.

 

Yeah.  I'm trying to find the best balance between realistic and the same level of abstraction as CAV.  Thus, I don't think scattering buildings is necessary, and you can have rubble flying out, and only model teh rubble where the building was.

 

Another addendum:  A collapsing building's AOE is its original number of levels.

[sparky]

2) I think I would allow buildings to be close assulted, and yes I would want them to have a DCA so they are not total destroyed in a single phase. IE give them a negitive DCA as most CAV's have a negitive ACA.

 

I agree, but something about a superheavy CAV CAing a building and being forced back a few inches just rings really silly to me.

 

As per the JoR construction rules CAV should not have an ACA less than -2 so if you apply a negitive number like -3 to -5 any CAV has a reasonable chance to succeed.

 

Another addendum:  A collapsing building's AOE is its original number of levels.

 

I don't know that I would go that far with it. I think you will only complicate the issue. At vary most I would limit the AOE to an inch all the way around the structure.

[Froggy the Great]

I'll have to think about the DCA for a bit more.  -2 for Regular, -1 for Reinforced, and 0 for Bunkers seems to be reasonable, pending playtest.

 

For the building AOE, I think that the rubble will go farther than that.  I'm basing this on the World Trade Centers.  I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, however.

[quester]

I m reposting this here

sorry if you covered some of this already

battle-field bunkers are only one floor (why mine are 4 DT)

 

 

quote:

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minus one per inch vertically, and one per inch horizontally from the edge of the AOE of the weapon.

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is this -1 to the damage done or the die roll

 

I think you ve got to many moderifers

 

I think you should just apply the rules we already have

the same rules as Inf. in an ACP or riding on a tank, just to keep it simple..and maybe a building damage table that puts damage on to any Inf. that may be in the building..

or maybe 1 point to the Inf. for every 2 a shot does to the building.to show parts falling on them and blast efects..

 

and Inf. can be targeted/dierectly attacked, ONLY if they are within 1" of a outside wall or on the roof of a building thats not a bunker.(bunkers have to much cover to attack people inside just like a APC).

with the standered 2 hard cover and 1 hull down..

 

just my take on it (just apply the rules there are)W/lite

modifactions)

 

quote:

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When a building runs out of damage tracks, it is destroyed. Infantry inside the building roll Pilot+ARM as normal, versus D10+(building's number of floors)+(how high up they were in the building) Assuming the infantry survives, they are placed outside the edge of the rubble, having moved the shortest distance to get there.

 

Models next to the collapsing building must roll Pilot+ARM versus D10+(number of floors)-(2x number of inches from the building), as the rubble spreads out.

 

Rubble is considered Rough Terrain, and provides one point of cover per two inches or fraction thereof that the model is within it.

 

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this works except for the the floor your on thing

(floors falling on you will do as much damage as falling with them will)the way you have it your safer on the non-top 2 floors then standing right next to the building..

and add a max of 5" AOE (thats -10)for collapsing building for game speed.(ex a 6 story building(tall for CAV) Max attack roll at 5" is a 6, min defance roll of anything is 2, roll a 3+ and there is no damage).and make it a hard and soft attack..at D10+ floors -2times range..to the max of 5"..

 

target locking a building would be the same as TLing a point on the ground..unless its got ECM like a bunker would have..

 

best

[Froggy the Great]

Thanks, all of you (keep posting, this is great).

 

I'm gonna compile all the new stuff into a new version, and post it hopefully later today.

[sparky]

I hate to sound critical, but if you don't limit your scope to an area instead of a per floor modifier the numbers can become astronomical. You cited the WTC (100+ floors), ok so you assign a 1/4 inch per floor of rubble, now your looking at 25+ inches, far too large an AOE.

 

Lets just use the nice maps on Mil-Net as an example. the brown set (building 1) will build a nice five story building. I don't think the rubble should be allowed to be more than one inch all the way around this structure and then it must be contained within the urban enviroment that contains it (rubble cannot spead farther than the streets between buildings will allow or through an adjoining building).

[Froggy the Great]

Well yeah, it does sorta break down if taken to its logical extreme.  Then again, I did it first.

 

4" max AOE works for me, blocked by intervening terrain.