Water Effects going Cloudy

[Kuroneko]

I'm not sure that this is right place to post this, but I need to pick the brains of people with more terrain experience than myself. To be honest, that's pretty much everyone on the forum, but there you go! 

 

I've been experimenting with different water effects on bases because I'm planning a somewhat finicky deep pond effect on a particularly awesome mini coming in the Bones 5 Kickstarter. It's been an interesting journey/struggle/experience but this one particular one has flummoxed me because it manifested a full three weeks after the material had set. Here's a couple of pics. It was crystal clear before.

 

 

You can see the cloudiness, it appeared overnight on the base. It seems to follow the line of the second layer of the material. Has anyone else had a reaction like this? It was Secret Weapon Water Effects. 

[Morihalda]

Whoa! I'm sorry that happened to you, though I'm glad it's on a test piece. I unfortunately don't know what caused that either, but I'm interested in the answer. Replicating it intentionally might lead to some cool effects!

[Glitterwolf]

Depending on the kind of resin, it could be caused by an uneven mix?

Also...stuff like this has a due date/expiration date.

 

 

[haldir]

It might be the initial layer never fully cured & is reacting to the fresh layer over it. I've never have use water effects but I've seen similar instances in other related items.

[TheOldGuard]

I've had this happen to me on a piece I did about 4 years ago & it's only recently that I've noticed it.

 

Before:

 

 

 

 

 

 

After:

 

 

 

 

 

I did tint the pools with GW shades & there are bits of leaf/terrain scatter in them so maybe that has reacted with it. This is Vallejo Still Water - shant be using it again!!

 

 

[Kuroneko]

On 3/23/2021 at 7:22 AM, Glitterwolf said:

Depending on the kind of resin, it could be caused by an uneven mix?

Also...stuff like this has a due date/expiration date.

 

 

 

It was well mixed before I used it, but I think that you may be onto something with the expiration date theory. I think the bottle was first opened 3 years ago, so that might be an issue 

 

On 3/23/2021 at 7:53 AM, haldir said:

It might be the initial layer never fully cured & is reacting to the fresh layer over it. I've never have use water effects but I've seen similar instances in other related items.

 

It could be that, I just thought that it was odd that it took so long for the issue to surface. I'm definitely going to have to do more tests now....

 

Thanks for the moral support @Morihalda! 

 

@TheOldGuard, that's some awesome work, even with the clouding issues! I'm also wondering if it was the scatter terrain that reacted to the water? This was the first time that I put a tuft in the resin, so I might try another one without the material. I really hope that it isn't the case, as my planned diorama requires a fair amount of vegetation. Just in case anyone is curious, it's going to involve this fine fellow, a small raft and an oblivious fisherman. The catobleplas will definitely have a water lilly on his head and tail :D

 

 

 

Unfortunately, my next materials test is with Vallejo still water. I'm rather nervous about it now.

 

My original plan was to use 2 part epoxy, but I've been told that the heat generated during its curing process can really mess up paint jobs :( Looks like it's back to the drawing board.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Kuroneko

[Loim]

I have limited experience with water effects, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to give you a good answer. I kind of wonder if the resin is interacting with some of the basing materials. Just a thought, and probably not the right one.

 

[TheOldGuard]

Thanks @Kuroneko!

 

If it is a reaction to other materials, maybe you could seal the base and scatter (with a spray varnish or laquer) before pouring the resin. Although I'm not sure how practical this would be on fine items such as tufts?

 

Have you considered using UV resin & a UV torch to set it? Curing is almost instantanious with this method so it's possible that any slow leaching out from materials while drying, may be nipped in the bud?

[TaleSpinner]

Dave Cecil teaches the water effects class at ReaperCon; let's see if we can summon him and his expertise: @LordDave. (I'll ping him on Discord too.)

 

 

[LordDave]

3 hours ago, TaleSpinner said:

Dave Cecil teaches the water effects class at ReaperCon; let's see if we can summon him and his expertise: @LordDave. (I'll ping him on Discord too.)

 

 

I just saw this, thanks @TaleSpinner. Let me catch up.

[LordDave]

On 3/22/2021 at 10:11 PM, Kuroneko said:

....You can see the cloudiness, it appeared overnight on the base. It seems to follow the line of the second layer of the material. Has anyone else had a reaction like this? It was Secret Weapon Water Effects. 

Ok, first, I havent used SW water effects but in general SW makes good products so we will give them a little benefit of the doubt here.  So again in general as that is a 1 part water effect product it is generally only intended to be used in very shallow pools, less than 1/8th inch.  Anything over that and weird things will happen.  Cloudiness is probably due to a couple of reasons. A. The inside is not cured, basically there could be a pocket of uncured resin incapsulated in a cure coccoon of resin.  Air cant get to it to finish the job.  As this piece set for a few weeks then got cloudy, thats probably not the case here.  May try drilling a few tiny pinvise holes in easy to hide locations (maybe even from underneath) to attempt to fix that.

 

Humidity can wreak havoc on water effects even long after curing.  If its due to maybe an ac vent blowing on it for example.  Or being stored in a cool area.  If its that, a few hours in direct sunlight might clear that fogginess up. 

 

Lastly, if this was poured over an existing cured area, that almost always creates problems.  Some times a visible cut line can be seen, or sometimes the resin will react negatively with the original layer.  1 parters will almost always shrink over time as well, which causes even more issues when used too thick. 

 

As this was a test piece, may not be worth trying to fix.  Add some algae and lilly pads on top and call it murky water.

 

For deeper pours like this, you should try a 2 part epoxy resin.  Make sure to follow manufacturers safety guidelines and make sure to mix it very thoroughly.  (If its not properly mixed, it may never cure.)  I use "easy cast" by casting craft. Mostly because its cheap, readily available at craft stores and it plays nicely with paints, metals and most plastics.  Do not use resin over any kind of styrofoam product.  Just dont... bad things.  Nuff said there.

 

Almost all water effects will also seep into flocking and stuff like that, so do the flocking last if you can.  Unless you are partially submerging reeds and stuff like that.  If you are doing that, avoid paper or fiberous based weeds and try to find plastic ones.  

 

Water effects are tricky, but fun.  Best advise is to experiment a lot on practice pieces and take notes on what worked good in your area.  Climate matters actually.  UV resins are great, but tend to be pricey.  I will attach a copy of my water effects handout.  Its not a definitive guide but may have some useful info in there.  I would also suggest you google David Diamondstone's webpage.  He did a fantastic write up for really deep pours a while back.  I will try to find it and link it below.  Hope this helps.  Good luck.

[TaleSpinner]

I knew you'd have the answers, Dave!

Personally, I just can't wait to watch @Kuroneko work on another one of my babies!  

 

 

[LordDave]

Here is that water effects handout

water_bases.pdf

https://www.lightminiatures.com/

 

Thats the link to David Diamondstone's awesome stuff.  He does amazing things well beyond my level.  

[LordDave]

On 3/24/2021 at 7:39 AM, Kuroneko said:

heat generated during its curing

Check the label.  Not all brands do this.  In fact, most of them that do, the heat is not scortching hot and wont affect paints that have cured.  But..  again... testing testing testing.  Try it on a practice piece first before risking something you care about

On 3/23/2021 at 1:58 PM, TheOldGuard said:

tint the pools with GW shades & there are bits of leaf/terrain scatter in them so maybe that has reacted with it.

Just a guess.  But this to me looks like that humidity thing I was talking about.  You can try putting this in direct sunlight on a warm not so windy day, or hitting it with a UV light.  Might fix it.  Great piece tho

On 3/24/2021 at 7:39 AM, Kuroneko said:

involve this fine fellow,

Last post I swear...  I LOVE THIS SCULPT by @TaleSpinner and cant wait to see how your idea turns out.

Edited March 26, 2021 by LordDave

[Kuroneko]

Thank you everyone! Sorry for the late reply, I've had a week(as my mum used to say)

 

@LordDave, thank you so much for your advice! I suspected that water effects were going to be tricky, otherwise everybody would be doing it. I've certainly got a lot to think about now.

 

I'm now suspecting that the humidity might be the culprit, as I live in a wet and windy part of the world and my painting area never actually gets warm until May/June onwards. I'll definitely try and put it in the sunlight.......when we actually get any!

 

On 3/26/2021 at 2:42 PM, TaleSpinner said:

I knew you'd have the answers, Dave!

Personally, I just can't wait to watch @Kuroneko work on another one of my babies!  

 

 

 

Your babies are just way too cute! They demand to be painted :D

 

My current plan for the one in resin is to go with a somewhat naturalistic colour scheme. Kind of like a crocodillian, with dark upper parts and a pale olive underside. He'll have a lilly pad on his head, complete with lilly and I'm currently trying to figure out how to do a tiny dragonfly so it can perch on the top. There will probably be some sort of vegetation hanging from his tail and I'm considering doing some small fish swimming near his feet, the way you see them around hippos. 

 

Never let it be said that I go for the easy options!

 

On 3/26/2021 at 2:42 PM, LordDave said:

Here is that water effects handout

water_bases.pdf 3.13 MB · 4 downloads

https://www.lightminiatures.com/

 

Thats the link to David Diamondstone's awesome stuff.  He does amazing things well beyond my level.  

 

David belongs to that group of painters that inspire and depress me in equal parts- his work is so absolutely phenomenal. Thank you for the pdfs :)

 

On 3/26/2021 at 2:54 PM, LordDave said:

Check the label.  Not all brands do this.  In fact, most of them that do, the heat is not scortching hot and wont affect paints that have cured.  But..  again... testing testing testing.  Try it on a practice piece first before risking something you care about

 

Last post I swear...  I LOVE THIS SCULPT by @TaleSpinner and cant wait to see how your idea turns out.

 

I've had a look through my hobby supplies and I have some Vallejo still water, a teeny tiny bottle of uv during resin and some of this 2 part resin that I picked up from the Big River site late last year. 

 

 

I really want to put some vegetation in the water, so I picked up some cheap plastic aquarium plants from our local pet store(one of the few shops currently open the the moment). My current plan is to try a similar base, but with the 2part epoxy and some painted strands of the plastic plants. Hopefully the painted plants should test two things, namely how the design affects paint and whether or not the tufts were introducing humidity into the mix. 

 

Thanks again @LordDave  and @TaleSpinner, this really is an amazing and helpful community we have here! I'll keep in posting my results!

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Kuroneko