5e modifications and rule changes?

[Kangaroorex]

So really what it sounds like is, if I want to create a wizard character, it is far better to pick up training in slight of hand (not a bad trait for wizards in general) and just ignore the knock spell unless its necessary to pop a lock from a distance or use it as a trap to draw monsters in.  

 

The effect seems a little ridiculous, but it can be used (hide 60 feet away, cast knock, see who comes running and get the drop on them from behind).  Its just important to know about.  And I should post a picture later but the sound is not in my version of the PBH, so it would be good to know about these things.  

 

What I would really wish for, there is no reason to produce, but it would be nice to have a comparison between 3.5 or ADD and 5e saying what changed and what didn't.   Normally I wouldn't bother but there are some younger DMs out there that get hot and bothered if you don't know the rules (even if you had no reason to suspect that they had changed)  I have seen a number of DMs at the local gaming store go off their rocker on some poor player who tried to use flanking when the game was newer.

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for the input and if anyone knows of other examples like this (knock suddenly grew a loud noise, flanking is optional, etc.) care to spill the beans?

 

Roo

[Dilvish the Deliverer]

2 hours ago, Kangaroorex said:

So really what it sounds like is, if I want to create a wizard character, it is far better to pick up training in slight of hand (not a bad trait for wizards in general) and just ignore the knock spell unless its necessary to pop a lock from a distance or use it as a trap to draw monsters in.  

 

The effect seems a little ridiculous, but it can be used (hide 60 feet away, cast knock, see who comes running and get the drop on them from behind).  Its just important to know about.  And I should post a picture later but the sound is not in my version of the PBH, so it would be good to know about these things.  

 

What I would really wish for, there is no reason to produce, but it would be nice to have a comparison between 3.5 or ADD and 5e saying what changed and what didn't.   Normally I wouldn't bother but there are some younger DMs out there that get hot and bothered if you don't know the rules (even if you had no reason to suspect that they had changed)  I have seen a number of DMs at the local gaming store go off their rocker on some poor player who tried to use flanking when the game was newer.

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for the input and if anyone knows of other examples like this (knock suddenly grew a loud noise, flanking is optional, etc.) care to spill the beans?

 

Roo

Well first example is that Sleight of Hand doesn't really control lockpicking, that would be covered under the Thieves Tools tool proficiency.  Knock does have the advantage of being able to open barred or stuck doors as well as those that are magically locked.

[BardicDave]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:59 PM, BlazingTornado said:

A regular car is hardly loud though.

This is more like a really loud muscle car careening through. You'd hear that over more noise.

 

Although, the adjective "loud" is a relative concept, and needs to be understood contextually. For instance, a "loud whisper" is likely to be significantly less loud than a "loud explosion". Similarly, I'd argue that a "loud knock" doesn't need to anywhere near as loud as a "loud car engine".

 

When I DM, I describe it as the sound of metal door knocker striking a wooden door firmly. I've read about DM's who make it a deafeningly loud gunshot-like sound and that just seems a bit obnoxious and over the top to me. YMMV of course.

Edited June 2, 2021 by BardicDave

[Kangaroorex]

17 hours ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

Well first example is that Sleight of Hand doesn't really control lockpicking, that would be covered under the Thieves Tools tool proficiency. 

What I got from the PHB and the DMG , thieves tools is not a proficiency.  Thieves tools provides a bonus to the slight of hand proficiency when performing specific tasks.  I had to spend a lot of time both with the books and with other DMs trying to get the hang of kits and tools.  If you found a specific call to use Thieves tools and other kits as separate proficiency, please let me have the location in the rules because I missed it completely.

17 hours ago, Dilvish the Deliverer said:

 

Knock does have the advantage of being able to open barred or stuck doors as well as those that are magically locked.

True but if the door is that stuck you may as well point the barbarian or fighter at it and get it unstuck 😀

 

To be fair it also includes things like history creeping into my worlds.  Magical research is possible in 5e and not particularly dangerous and elven wizards have been around for thousands of years.  In all that time no wizard has scratched their head and asked "I wonder if I can modify the spell to not make noise....'  

 

[Nunae]

I kinda understand why there is a drawback to this spell. A wizard is already a super useful class to have around, and it's kinda nice that the rogue is better at one of their "core class fantasie things", breaking in by silently opening doors. Or someone else who invested into Dex and Thieve's Tools. 

The books themselves say that there are more spells in the world than in the PHB, so you can easily add an improved Knock spell for your players to find or research themselves or just handwave the sound on the original spell, but for the core game I support a 2nd level spell being unable to outshine a very talented thief in opening locks.

[BlazingTornado]

1 hour ago, Kangaroorex said:

Thieves tools provides a bonus to the slight of hand proficiency when performing specific tasks.

As far as the PHB is concerned, proficiency with the tool lets you add the proficiency modifier to an ability check if you do it with the tool you're proficient with.

 

WOTC kind of realized how much of a drawback that was, especially as applied to things like thieves tools, because taking thieves tools without sleight of hand (for example) is far more limiting than vice versa.

 

Xanathar's Guide To Everything offers up the alternative that if you're proficient in both a skill and a tool for a check, you get advantage on the roll.

[SotF]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:54 PM, BlazingTornado said:

I just went over a copy of the D&D Next playtest rules from 2013 and the loud noise was there too, just at a lower range.

 

I just checked the SRD as well, thinking that it might have been something accidentally left out of it (Which a lot of 3rd party tools use), it's there as well.

[Seahawk]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:22 AM, Kangaroorex said:

What I got from the PHB and the DMG , thieves tools is not a proficiency.  Thieves tools provides a bonus to the slight of hand proficiency when performing specific tasks.  I had to spend a lot of time both with the books and with other DMs trying to get the hang of kits and tools.  If you found a specific call to use Thieves tools and other kits as separate proficiency, please let me have the location in the rules because I missed it completely.

 

 

Was Sleight of Hand the lockpick skill in 3E or something?  I see people in 5E forums all the time who think this is this case, but it isn't.  I guess I could see the DM allowing it, but I think it's clear the intention was to use tool proficiency for it.  (I jumped from 1e to 5e, with a little bit of 4E and Pathfinder).  I'm pretty sure I still screw this up a lot, until pasting these I didn't realize it applied to traps, too.

 

 

DMG p. 103, Locked Doors.  Characters who don't have the key to a locked door can pick the lock with a successful Dexterity check (doing so requires thieves' tools and proficiency in their use).

 

PHB p. 95, (Rogue) PROFICIENCIES Armor: Light armor

                                                           Weapons: Simple weapons, hand crossbows, longswords, rapiers, shortswords

                                                           Tools: Thieves' tools

 

PHB p. 154, Thieves' Tools:  "Proficiency with these tools lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to disarm traps or open locks"

 

PHB P 315, (Index): pick locks. See thieves' tools (sends you to p 154 above)

 

PHB p. 177, Sleight of Hand. Whenever you attempt an act of legerdemain or manual trickery, such as planting something on someone else or concealing an object on your person, make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check. The DM might also call for a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check to determine whether you can lift a coin purse off another person or slip something out of another person's pocket. (nothing about lock picking)

 

PHB p. 177, Other Dexterity Checks. The DM might call for a Dexterity check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:

 

Control a heavily laden cart on a steep descent

Steer a chariot around a tight turn

Pick a lock

Disable a trap

Securely tie up a prisoner

Wriggle free of bonds

Play a stringed instrument

Craft a small or detailed object

 

(as an aside, WTH?!? on most of these -- they map pretty closely with existing proficiencies or actual skills that are tied to different abilities than dex)

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Seahawk