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Randomness XVIII: Ex-Vee-Triple-Eye


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On 12/7/2021 at 6:35 PM, Green Eyed Monsty said:

Bwa-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha!

I love it when Karmic-Justice is meted out by the perps own hand.

GEM

 

 Few things are more entertaining than hearing someone complain that they chipped a tooth while biting themselves in the arse, lol.... ::D:

 

 

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7 hours ago, Green Eyed Monsty said:

I agree, we are splitting hairs.

But this is the meat and potatoes of understanding the full ramifications of history.

Here's my line of reasoning:

Without Pearl Harbor the isolationists in the USA still have enough influence to keep the US Armed Forces sidelined.

The massive support of the British Isles in the form of both food and war materials doesn't ramp up as quickly,  possibly making a difference in Hitler invading and conquering Great Britain.

The Norwegian Heavy Water Project isn't crippled so Hitlers research into an Atomic Bomb isn't impeded.  We know now that the Nazi's were mere months away from having a working A-Bomb, which would have been delivered to the Continental USA by intercontinental range bombers that would have been in production by 1946.

The Manhattan Project is delayed from being started up by months while the USA dithers about getting into the shooting war.

Many of the projects the Nazi's were close to completing, such as expanded sub pens in France, would have been completed, as would additional launch sites for V-1 and V-2 rockets/ballistic missiles.

Lend/lease would have started shipping great quantities of food and military supplies to the Soviet Union later, possibly making enough of a difference to tip the balance in the German's Russian Campaign. [I appreciate the key role the Russian Winter played in stalling the German Advance]

I see the Soviet Union as not becoming a true World Power until the end stage of WWII, with the territory they wrested from the Nazi's and occupied becoming the core for their client states that kept the Soviet Economy viable for longer than it would have without such clients.  Without the {as characterized by Churchill}  "Iron Curtain"  there would have been much more trade between the Eastern Europe Nations and the West, loosening the hold Moscow as able to exert over these nations much sooner than actually occurred.

I'm treading very close to what used to be beekeeper territory so I will leave it at this.

Regards

GEM

Well played!

Very well played.

GEM

 

As you say, we are in counter-factual territory, so this is all entirely speculative.

So a few more of my counter arguments:

1) Before Pearl Harbour USN is already in a shooting war with the Kreigsmaine. Sooner or later the loss of American ships and lives is going to trigger a war. I don't see the isolationists being able to stop this.

2) The Russians stop The Germans at the gates of Moscow before any significant Anglo-American help arrives. After that the Germans are stuck in a 2-front war. It will last longer and be even bloodier without US help, but I can't see the Germans achieving anything better than a very painful stalemate.

3) The German Heavy Water plant is destroyed by the indigenous Norwegian Resistance movement. This is still likely to happen even without outside help. Also I'd like to hear your references to the Germans being close to having the atom bomb. They lacked anything on the scale of Manhattan Project and most of their physicists (and Hitler) denigrated the "Jewish science" that would lead the required research. And even if they had got the Bomb, the emasculated Luftwaffe had almost no chance of delivering anywhere.

 

Another pivotal point that I prefer: Winston Churchill steps out into to cross Fifth Avenue in 1932, looks the wrong way and gets hit by a taxi, hospitalised for a month. If this had been slightly more serious Churchill could easily have died. In that case a British compromise peace is much more likely after the Fall of France, Hitler avoids a 2-front War and we are in an entirely new ball-game.

 

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13 minutes ago, paintybeard said:

 

As you say, we are in counter-factual territory, so this is all entirely speculative.

So a few more of my counter arguments:

1) Before Pearl Harbour USN is already in a shooting war with the Kreigsmaine. Sooner or later the loss of American ships and lives is going to trigger a war. I don't see the isolationists being able to stop this.

2) The Russians stop The Germans at the gates of Moscow before any significant Anglo-American help arrives. After that the Germans are stuck in a 2-front war. It will last longer and be even bloodier without US help, but I can't see the Germans achieving anything better than a very painful stalemate.

3) The German Heavy Water plant is destroyed by the indigenous Norwegian Resistance movement. This is still likely to happen even without outside help. Also I'd like to hear your references to the Germans being close to having the atom bomb. They lacked anything on the scale of Manhattan Project and most of their physicists (and Hitler) denigrated the "Jewish science" that would lead the required research. And even if they had got the Bomb, the emasculated Luftwaffe had almost no chance of delivering anywhere.

 

Another pivotal point that I prefer: Winston Churchill steps out into to cross Fifth Avenue in 1932, looks the wrong way and gets hit by a taxi, hospitalised for a month. If this had been slightly more serious Churchill could easily have died. In that case a British compromise peace is much more likely after the Fall of France, Hitler avoids a 2-front War and we are in an entirely new ball-game.

 

 

History can be perceived in different ways according to ones location and the meaning to that location.

 

As for the Germans and the development of an Atomic Bomb, it is already bunked.

There's a documentary about it, it aired on Discovery Channel somewhere in the late 90's I think.

Hitler's scientists were on the wrong track and it would not have lead to an Atomic Bomb unless they discovered their error.

They only got to some preliminairy research on the subject.

 

See also this article

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/german-atomic-bomb-project

 

Hitler did declare War on the USA, but he did so because the USA declared War on Japan after Pearl Harbor, since they were part of the Axis Alliance it was to be expected.

Mussolini also declared War on the USA on the same day because of this alliance.

 

Anyway, the USA entering the War wasn't an IF it was a WHEN question.

Pearl Harbor just made certain that it was time to do so.

 

I love to discuss History, let's just be careful not to get too political so we don't break the Forum's rules.

 

 

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Thursday trivia for December 9th:

  • 1851 – The first YMCA in North America was established in Montreal.

  • 1960 – The first episode of Coronation Street, the world's longest-running television soap opera, was broadcast in the United Kingdom.

  • 1979 – The eradication of the smallpox virus was certified, making smallpox the first of only two diseases that have been driven to extinction (rinderpest in 2011 being the other).

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Wheee, I get to go see a doctor again!  ...No, I didn't injure something else! ::P: They were able to secure the van from the furniture department, and my wrist has healed enough I am confident in my ability to drive a van (just not the ability to regularly get in and out of a Hino)...  So I'm headed there to get my FAF (Functional Abilities Form) modified so I'm cleared to drive smaller vehicles.

 

....Which was especially handy for the boss who was stressing out about how long we will be playing catch up, as barely 10% of the deliveries got done yesterday due to ice (trucks couldn't get traction, and parking lots were super slick skating rinks).  I'll be doing what I don't mind but others hate with a passion (residential deliveries) but whooo out on the road again once I get this piece of paper modified! 

 

But yeah, yesterday was "fun" - three or so hours of rain followed by Arctic winds meant we got this apocalypse to deal with... 

20211208_165950.thumb.jpg.e93f4e86109f458a5f8b4acbbee060bf.jpg

(this is taken at the bus stop in front of work - my crampons aka add on ice spikes weren't removed until I got home) 

Edited by WhiteWulfe
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1 hour ago, Jasper_the_2nd said:

Yuck.  That picture reminds me of what here usually looks like for most of February.....

 

Yeah, we usually don't get anywhere near this kind of ice.  We usually get a foot of snow, a day or two of warm ish temps and the ice is just at intersections. 

 

It's cleared up somewhat this morning, which is good.  Well, at least where I love, will find out how work looks in a few hours... 

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1 hour ago, Jasper_the_2nd said:

Yuck.  That picture reminds me of what here usually looks like for most of February.....

 

That was our weather *this* week. Snow, high winds, then freezing rain. Then it got super cold (well under -20C before windchill) to make the ice extra hard. Lots of activities were cancelled.

 

So yeah... winter.

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Oh, the universe is quite the comedian!

 

I posted up that picture of my 25 years of service gift, then last night a LinkedIn email had a job opening at a nearby company that I am extremely qualified for that would be 25-56% more pay.   That grass certainly looks green and tasty.

 

In a warped mindset due to my pegasus nature (turns left when everybody goes right), I almost want to try to do my whole career at one company. That’s just out of desiring the unique. Financially, even if the company goes under in three years, by then I would have earned nearly another full year of income at my current rate. 
 

Off to polish the resume tonight. 

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