Building rules rev 2.

[Froggy the Great]

Here are the building rules Rev. 2.  As always, I would appreciate suggestions.  In your suggestion, please reference the number of the paragraph you are tearing into.

 

I am thinking about rules for buildings being set on fire, but can't find anything that is simple enough.  I would appreciate suggestions on that too.

 

12-10-2002

1. DESIGN INTENT:

1a. These are designed to be used with the buildings whose roofs have rubble glued underneath.  When the building is destroyed, replace the building with the rubbled underside of the roof.

 

1b. These rules intend to make buildings a haven for Infantry, and to make them difficult to dislodge without extreme force.

 

2. BASIC BUILDING STATS:

2a. Normal Buildings:  

 1 DT per floor

 2 ARM

 ECM determined per scenario.

 DCA determined per scenario, usually -2.

 Dissipate one damage point per inch within the building

 Provide infantry at a window one point of cover.

 

2b. Reinforced buildings:

 3 DT per two floors, round up.

 3 ARM

 ECM determined per scenario.

 DCA determined per scenario, usually -1.

 Dissipate two damage points per inch within the building

 Provide infantry at a window one point of cover.

 

2c. Bunkers:  

 3 DT per floor, or determined per scenario

 4 ARM determined per scenario

 ECM determined per scenario.

 DCA determined per scenario, usually 0.

 Dissipate three damage points per inch within the building

 Provide infantry at a window three points of cover.

 

3. INFANTRY IN BUILDINGS:

3a. Infantry are normally the only ones that can enter buildings.  It takes 1" of movement to go up a floor.  Place them on top of the building to indicate their position on the floor, and then a die by them to indicate which floor they're on.

 

3b. Infantry cannot see outside or be seen from outside if they are not at the edge.  Indirect fire may not be fired from inside the building, but may be fired from the roof.  Infantry on top of the building are considered out in the open, and LOS must be determined by eyeballing between models.

 

3c. If two infantry stands within a building wish to shoot at each other, both are treated as having one point of cover per inch between the two stands.

The building takes a point of damage if the shooting die rolls an unmodified:

Regular:     9

Reinforced: 10

Bunker:     N/A

 

4. SHOOTING AT BUILDINGS:

4a. To shoot at buildings with direct fire, designate a point on the building and roll for TL and effect as normal.  If the building has no ECM, TL is automatic.  If there are infantry in the building, they receive the same damage as the building, minus the building's damage dissipation per inch they are away from the point of impact.

 

4b. To shoot at buildings with indirect fire, designate a point on the building and resolve fire as though firing on a point on the battlefield.  If there are infantry in the building, they receive the same damage as the building, minus the building's damage dissipation per inch they are away from the point of impact.

 

6. CRASHING INTO BUILDINGS:

6a. If a model wishes to ram into a building, it is destroyed.  The rammed building takes damage as though it has been shot with a weapon of a strength equal to the starting number of damage tracks of the ramming model.

 

7. DESTROYING BUILDINGS:

7a. When a building runs out of damage tracks, it is destroyed.  Replace the building model with the overturned building's roof, onto the underside of which has been glued suitable rubble. 

 

7b. Infantry inside the building roll a suppression test, with their target number increased by one per two levels (rounding up) that the building has.  If the suppression test is failed, the infantry is destroyed.  Assuming the infantry survives, they are placed outside the edge of the rubble, having moved the shortest distance to get there.

 

7c. A collapsing building has an Area of Effect of the original number of levels, measured from the original edge of the building.  Models to the collapsing building must roll a suppression test, the target number increased by the number of levels in the building.  A 10 always passes.  If the test is failed, the model is hit by rubble, and takes damage equal to the starting number of levels of the building, minus one per inch (or fraction thereof) that they are away from the building.

 

7d. Rubble is considered Rough Terrain, and provides Level One cover to Level Two models.  For Level One models, it provides cover the same as Light Woods -  one point per inch, and 3 or more means no LOS.

[sparky]

I sit here and look at the building we constructed using the instructions as per the discussion on Mil-Net and I have to scratch my head and wonder if you have actually sat down and taken any measurements to know what you are dealing with.

 

A 4 story building is 3 1/4 inches tall including the roof, and by point 7C it has an AOE of 4 inches, I'm sorry your right back where you started from with the WTC and having a 100+ inch AOE. It doen't work. You have to prorate the AOE by with a variable or complicate the system by using fractions of the standard measurement.

 

We discussed point 7b but I think you forgot that you must also include the movement of the model into account to determine if it can get out. Example was light infantry has a movement of four, uses up one point of movement for each floor in decent and one to get out, nothing above level 4 can get out even on a sucessful supression check.

 

Point 6 doesn't take into account for collateral to the CAV doing the ramming. You are opening the door for the smallest of CAVs to ram the largest of buildings and come out unscratched.

[Joel47]

6a. If a model wishes to ram into a building, it is destroyed.  The rammed building takes damage as though it has been shot with a weapon of a strength equal to the starting number of damage tracks of the ramming model.

Perhaps some damage to the rammer might be in order for reinforced buildings and bunkers?  Excuse me while I stream-of-consciousness this.

1 per floor for reinforced, and 2 per floor for bunkers might work, with double damage for soft targets (aircraft, not infantry) ramming.  Maybe even 0.5/floor for regular buildings, round down?  Aircraft ramming buildings shouldn't be able to shrug off the damage, but a Rhino should be able to walk out unscathed.  I suppose there should be a roll versus armor, with piloting skill helping:

 

Listed as hard/soft, numbers are per floor rounded down.

 

Regular building: +0.5/+2

Reinforced building: +1/+4

Bunker: +3/+8

[quester]

your cover mods are way off

 

inf in a building would get +2 heavy cover and +1 hull down

just from the rule book

 

just like being behind any wall..and bunkers should be no target for troops inside..you have to destory the bunker to get at them..

 

and no auto TL for DF have it the same as targeting a point on the ground for IF..

 

other than that I think you have a winner

and very close to what i play with now

[Froggy the Great]

Sparky, the revisions were based on playtest, albiet not as thorough as I wanted.

Point by point:

 

I sit here and look at the building we constructed using the instructions as per the discussion on Mil-Net and I have to scratch my head and wonder if you have actually sat down and taken any measurements to know what you are dealing with.

Yes, I have.

A 4 story building is 3 1/4 inches tall including the roof, and by point 7C it has an AOE of 4 inches, I'm sorry your right back where you started from with the WTC and having a 100+ inch AOE. It doen't work. You have to prorate the AOE by with a variable or complicate the system by using fractions of the standard measurement.

I tried having an AOE of 1/2 starting levels, but wasn't happy with the effects...it was too easy to avoid.  I'll think about this some more.

We discussed point 7b but I think you forgot that you must also include the movement of the model into account to determine if it can get out. Example was light infantry has a movement of four, uses up one point of movement for each floor in decent and one to get out, nothing above level 4 can get out even on a sucessful supression check.

Whoops.  You're right.  I gotta start listening to those nagging doubts.  I still like the idea of a 10 always succeeding...the squad found a ventilation shaft and slid down it or something.

Point 6 doesn't take into account for collateral to the CAV doing the ramming. You are opening the door for the smallest of CAVs to ram the largest of buildings and come out unscratched.

Um.  I can see where that is confusing.  The intent of the rule was to say "If a model rams into a building, THE MODEL is destroyed".  Joel47, I believe this answers your concerns too.

 

Quester:

your cover mods are way off

inf in a building would get +2 heavy cover and +1 hull down

just from the rule book

Do you have chapter and verse on that?  I don't remember that.

just like being behind any wall..and bunkers should be no target for troops inside..you have to destory the bunker to get at them..

This is why I specified "At a window".  In the CAV age, any infantry at a window at a bunker deserves what they get.  :laugh:

Besides, if infantry is not at an edge (The buildings I use have windows so small as to make enforcement of "By A Window" unplayable) there is no LOS.  

and no auto TL for DF have it the same as targeting a point on the ground for IF..

I can see both ways here.  If there's no auto-TL, I wouldn't force drift, I'd just make it a non-TL'd shot.  However, it's clearly stated somewhere or by someone at Reaper (don't have the reference, sorry) thatif there is no ECM, TL is achieved automatically.  I see no difference between locking your shot onto the Rhino's vulnerable knee  and locking onto that structurally important strut.

 

Heh.  "Go not to the Frog with advice, for he shall say both no and yes."

other than that I think you have a winner

and very close to what i play with now

Why thankye...

[Froggy the Great]

One more thing:  all the buildings I used are here, and are true n-scale.  If you print them off true to resolution, you get roughly 1" per level, plus 1/4 inch for the roof.  This is why I feel that a 10-level building that is 10.25" tall should have an AOE of 10".  Remember, if you're 9" from the building when it falls, you're still only taking 1 damage from falling rubble if you fail suppression.

[Chrome]

your cover mods are way off

 

inf in a building would get +2 heavy cover and +1 hull down

just from the rule book

You can only get one or the other, not both.  Soft/hard cover and hull down aren't cumalitive.

 

Rules PDF pg 21, 2nd column Q- Are the effects of cover cumalitive? (this is the FAQ section).

 

Cover type and trees are cumalitive, soft/hard and hull down are not.

[quester]

sorry but that just has to be wrong.

(not the first time in CAV FAQ)

 

all cover is soft or hard the only two kinds in CAV..

 

reg buildings are soft +1,  reinforced is hard +2, and hull down adds +1 if more then 25% of the target is out of line of sight..

you can have all kinds of mixed cover on a target..

 

EX.) target standing in a building behind rough terrain with another building blocking half the target and a inch of light trees running between the buildings.. the way that FAQ states thats only +1 because you don t add cover mods..unless they are trees.

thsts just not right! this should be a +4 all the way

 

 

"This is why I specified "At a window".  In the CAV age, any infantry at a window at a bunker deserves what they get.  

Besides, if infantry is not at an edge (The buildings I use have windows so small as to make enforcement of "By A Window" unplayable) there is no LOS."

 

what I saying about bunkers is they have gun-ports like APCs or firing slits, not windows, there for troops inside should not be targetable.. execpt in close combat

[Froggy the Great]

Bunker:  Gotcha.  I will adjust accordingly.

 

Anyone else have any major holes to poke in this?

[Leech]

I am thinking about rules for buildings being set on fire, but can't find anything that is simple enough.  I would appreciate suggestions on that too.

Yeah, don't do it!!

 

roll for TL and effect as normal

 

This is where you're going wrong, in my opinion. Just make a token TL roll to determine if you get a TL, since it doesn't have an ECM but it still wouldn't be an automatic - human error is still possible :o) I use the same numbers for IF'ing a point in space.

 

Other than those two, I don't see anything wrong - aside from one thing - where's paragraph 5?!?!?! :o)

 

I agree with Quester on the cover thing, I don't think you should be prevented from getting one when you have another. Although I wouldn't stack too much... +4 for a soft target makes them 'scaly and immortal' pretty much :o)

 

I agree with Sparky about the movement thing, and yes, keep the natural 10 bit. That could be used to represent luck in the fall or even pitons or a parachute :o)

 

Something for you to think about Frosch, what about those bunkers (the majority if realitity is anything to go by) which have a token doorway on the surface (making them 1 storey) yet have another 5 storeys beneath the surface?

[Froggy the Great]

Paragraph 5...Um.  "Deleted for security reasons" sounds a lot better than "I'm a product of the American Educational System and I forgot."

 

Hmm.  For subsurface bunkers, I'd say it's best determined per scenario.  Anything below the surface f the table has to be abstracted on the playing field, in any case, so it doesn't fit in well with the whole terrain-modeling thing anyway.  Thus, I conveniently ignore it.  :P

[sparky]

One more thing:  all the buildings I used are here, and are true n-scale.  If you print them off true to resolution, you get roughly 1" per level, plus 1/4 inch for the roof.  This is why I feel that a 10-level building that is 10.25" tall should have an AOE of 10".  Remember, if you're 9" from the building when it falls, you're still only taking 1 damage from falling rubble if you fail suppression.

Frosh - I love what your trying to do, but back up and look at the mess you have just made out of a standard 4 x 6 playing field, with a 10" AOE you just missed covering half the width of the table by 3- inches. Yea, you just splatered a building to create 20+ inches (not counting base size). I can't buy that a single story building creates almost three times it's own rubble. You need to find a variable for height based on your floors (even if it is divided by 2 or 3) to tone down the mess. While the WTC is emblazened in your memory, if you were to apply the same rules to it, the debris would have buried the Statue of Liberty and Jersey.

[Froggy the Great]

Tell you what Sparky, you and I both playtest this weekend, and on Monday, we'll come back to this. I'm willing to be convinced, but I don't think it's that big a problem.

[Chrome]

sorry but that just has to be wrong.

(not the first time in CAV FAQ)

No, its right on.  In order for a model to get hard or soft cover from an object it already has to be standing behind it. Otherwise its not cover!

 

Hull down is for hills and cliffs, things that aren't designated as types of cover but still can be used to hide behind. (At least my group never points out a hill at the beginning of a game and says, "That's soft cover.")

 

EX.) target standing in a building behind rough terrain with another building blocking half the target and a inch of light trees running between the buildings.. the way that FAQ states thats only +1 because you don t add cover mods..unless they are trees.

You're reading the rule wrong.  You can't combine types of cover on one piece of terrain (IE, a building can't give you both hard cover and hull down) but you still get both cover mods from two different pieces of terrain.  In your example (provided that both buildings are soft cover) you'd get +1 for the one you were standing in and +1 for the one blocking LoS (your choice of soft cover or hull down) and another +1 for the trees, giving you a +3 defensive modifier.

 

What you couldn't do is say that the building blocking LoS gives you a +1 for soft cover and an additional +1 for hull down.

[Leech]

When you put it like that Sparky, I tend to agree with you.

 

What I think is needed here is a nice and simple scatter... I've no problem with a 10" tall building putting the hurt on anything within 10", but I do have a problem with EVERYTHING within 10" in any direction.

 

When a building falls, it falls one of 2 ways.... it falls like the Twin Towers did and collapse in on itself and fall straight down or it'll topple over and land on one side.

 

Now, don't go asking me the probabiliies of these things happening, I know some of the science involved by not much. But what I can say is that we need to determine whether it'll collapse or topple.... and if it topples it should be biased towards the direction the final round came into the building from.

 

Also, if it topples, it will topple over and cause havok on that side, but someone 5 feet from the 'impact' will be relatively unscathed (esp if they're a hard target). So, in my opinion there should be a corridor or cone of damage inflcted by the building... still the same AoE but only a segment of that entire circle and not all of it.

 

Them's my tupence.

 

On the issue of cover etc, what are you guys talking about - hard and soft cover?? I thought all cover simply increased your effective ARM in your defensive roll...